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  • #31
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    So Barnett, hutch, blotchy, Aman and misterX ?!? Wow busy girl.

    But seriously, why couldnít she had fish and chips with blotchy?
    May even have been what was in his pail.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
      Hi Abby.

      Joseph Taylor described the man leaving fiddymont's as having a long ginger-coloured mustache that curled at the ends. [Star, 10 Sep].

      I've wondered if there was a connection between Blotchy and John Cleary, the man who visits the Herald's London office in 1889. I remember that man being described as having a boil on his face
      Robert mentioned Joseph Taylor who followed a suspicious person (details : http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Joseph_Taylor ) from the Prince Alfred Public House in Brushfield street.

      The testimony says Taylor followed him to Half-moon Street. The only Half-moon Street I can find is near Hyde Park which seems a long distance from Brushfield St.

      Was there another Halfmoon Street in the Whitechapel area ?

      Rgds
      Craig

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      • #33
        If Hutchinson was telling the truth, why would Astrakhan man go on to kill Mary after being seen (close up) by Hutchinson? Pretty ballsy but not real smart.

        A lie by Hutchinson would simply be that. A lie. It does not necessarily make him Mary's killer.

        c.d.

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        • #34
          Does Lawende's description match what Kosminski as a Polish Jew most likely would have looked like, i.e., dark complected?

          c.d.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by c.d. View Post
            If Hutchinson was telling the truth, why would Astrakhan man go on to kill Mary after being seen (close up) by Hutchinson? Pretty ballsy but not real smart.

            A lie by Hutchinson would simply be that. A lie. It does not necessarily make him Mary's killer.

            c.d.
            Cd
            Unless you donít think any of the witnesses saw the ripper, then the ripper was seen well by many people before he went on to kill.

            No, a lie by hutch isnít as simple as that. It would put him as suspect number one by any detective worth his salt.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #36
              ["We", don't need to see their names.
              This report indicates the police had their names. This round of interviews must have been warranted due to Hutchinson coming forward with his story on the 12th. So on the 13th?, the police interviewed all the residents, then the story appears on the 14th, as it did.

              They wouldn't be called to the inquest because Maxwell, who was, said Kelly was alive at 9 o'clock Friday morning, plus the earliest time she could have been killed was after 3 o'clock that morning. These witnesses are confirming Hutchinson's story, which was not known at the time of the inquest.


              I’m sorry but I think we do. And owing to the condition of the body we have no clear time of death. Also I think we are putting too much on the cry of murder. What we have with Blotchy is a similar-sounding man with 2 of the 5 victims as well as with another prostitute not that far away who was attacked at the throat. I’m pretty sure that policemen would have canvassed the whole court before the inquest and they put up witnesses who gave various accounts—some conflicting—to the coroner. If they had credible witnesses to her being alive and in the court around 3.00 am I think they would have used them. Also, even if she danced the jig in Miller’s Court playing her violin that still would not disprove the possibility of Blotchy, still in there, waiting for her to get undressed, get into bed and start going to sleep. When even a tall strapping young woman like that would be vulnerable and unable to defend herself.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Craig H View Post
                Was there another Halfmoon Street in the Whitechapel area ?

                Rgds
                Craig
                Hi Craig,

                I believe it refers to Halfmoon Passage, which was directly south across Whitechapel Road from the entrance to Castle Alley. Incidentally, after passing through this passage to the other side (south side) you arrive at the Whitechapel Board of Works Office (Great Alie Steet) and behind that, the home of Albert Bachert.
                Last edited by jerryd; 11-28-2017, 05:12 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                  I believe it refers to Halfmoon Passage, which was directly south across Whitechapel Road from the entrance to Castle Alley. Incidentally, after passing through this passage to the other side (south side) you arrive at the Whitechapel Board of Works Office (Great Alie Steet) and behind that, the home of Albert Bachert.
                  I'm not sure that's the place he went, Jerry. This excerpt mentions him going towards Bishopsgate and then as far as Dirty Dick's, which (today at least) is no. 202 Bishopsgate.

                  "That friend is Mrs. Mary Chappell, who lives at 28 Stewart street, near by. Her story corroborates Mrs. Fiddymont's, and is more particular. When the man came in, the expression of his eyes caught her attention, his look was so startling and terrifying. It frightened Mrs. Fiddymont so that she requested Mrs. Chappell to stay. He wore a light blue check shirt, which was torn badly, into rags in fact, on the right shoulder. There was a narrow streak of blood under his right ear, parallel with the edge of his shirt. There was also dried blood between the fingers of his hand. When he went out she slipped out by the other door, and watched him as he went towards Bishopsgate street. She called Joseph Taylor's attention to him, and Taylor followed him. Joseph Taylor is a builder, of 22 Stewart street. He states that as soon as his attention was attracted to the man he followed him. He walked rapidly, and came alongside the man, but did not speak to him. The man was rather thin, about 5ft 8in high, and apparently between 40 and 50 years of age. He had a shabby genteel look, pepper and salt trousers, which fitted badly and dark coat. When Taylor came alongside him the man glanced at him, and Taylor says, "His eyes were as wild as a hawk's." The man walked holding his coat together at the top. He had a nervous and frightened way about him. He had a light moustache and short sandy hair. Taylor ceased to follow him, but watched him as far as "Dirty Dick's" in Halfmoon street, where he became lost to view"

                  Taylor's description doesn't sound much like either Blotchy or Cleary.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                    I'm not sure that's the place he went, Jerry. This excerpt mentions him going towards Bishopsgate and then as far as Dirty Dick's, which (today at least) is no. 202 Bishopsgate.

                    "That friend is Mrs. Mary Chappell, who lives at 28 Stewart street, near by. Her story corroborates Mrs. Fiddymont's, and is more particular. When the man came in, the expression of his eyes caught her attention, his look was so startling and terrifying. It frightened Mrs. Fiddymont so that she requested Mrs. Chappell to stay. He wore a light blue check shirt, which was torn badly, into rags in fact, on the right shoulder. There was a narrow streak of blood under his right ear, parallel with the edge of his shirt. There was also dried blood between the fingers of his hand. When he went out she slipped out by the other door, and watched him as he went towards Bishopsgate street. She called Joseph Taylor's attention to him, and Taylor followed him. Joseph Taylor is a builder, of 22 Stewart street. He states that as soon as his attention was attracted to the man he followed him. He walked rapidly, and came alongside the man, but did not speak to him. The man was rather thin, about 5ft 8in high, and apparently between 40 and 50 years of age. He had a shabby genteel look, pepper and salt trousers, which fitted badly and dark coat. When Taylor came alongside him the man glanced at him, and Taylor says, "His eyes were as wild as a hawk's." The man walked holding his coat together at the top. He had a nervous and frightened way about him. He had a light moustache and short sandy hair. Taylor ceased to follow him, but watched him as far as "Dirty Dick's" in Halfmoon street, where he became lost to view"

                    Taylor's description doesn't sound much like either Blotchy or Cleary.
                    You're correct Joshua. I was just looking at it again and saw the Dirty Dick's reference.

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                    • #40
                      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...gate_-_EC2.jpg
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • #41
                        Looks like Halfmoon Street where Dirty Dicks was located was on the west side of Bishopsgate Street and Artillery Lane. Right at the Liverpool Station.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                          I'm not sure that's the place he went, Jerry. This excerpt mentions him going towards Bishopsgate and then as far as Dirty Dick's, which (today at least) is no. 202 Bishopsgate.

                          "That friend is Mrs. Mary Chappell, who lives at 28 Stewart street, near by. Her story corroborates Mrs. Fiddymont's, and is more particular. When the man came in, the expression of his eyes caught her attention, his look was so startling and terrifying. It frightened Mrs. Fiddymont so that she requested Mrs. Chappell to stay. He wore a light blue check shirt, which was torn badly, into rags in fact, on the right shoulder. There was a narrow streak of blood under his right ear, parallel with the edge of his shirt. There was also dried blood between the fingers of his hand. When he went out she slipped out by the other door, and watched him as he went towards Bishopsgate street. She called Joseph Taylor's attention to him, and Taylor followed him. Joseph Taylor is a builder, of 22 Stewart street. He states that as soon as his attention was attracted to the man he followed him. He walked rapidly, and came alongside the man, but did not speak to him. The man was rather thin, about 5ft 8in high, and apparently between 40 and 50 years of age. He had a shabby genteel look, pepper and salt trousers, which fitted badly and dark coat. When Taylor came alongside him the man glanced at him, and Taylor says, "His eyes were as wild as a hawk's." The man walked holding his coat together at the top. He had a nervous and frightened way about him. He had a light moustache and short sandy hair. Taylor ceased to follow him, but watched him as far as "Dirty Dick's" in Halfmoon street, where he became lost to view"

                          Taylor's description doesn't sound much like either Blotchy or Cleary.
                          This is an excerpt from the Star, 10 Sep. By carrotty, could she mean 'a long, ginger-coloured moustache'?

                          Taylor went out a moment later without any particular intention of FOLLOWING THE MAN, whom Mrs. Chappell pointed out to him. The man was going towards Bishopsgate, however, and, as this was Taylor's direction, he increased his pace.
                          "It was all I could do to overtake him," he said yesterday, "and I am not a bad walker myself. The man walked very rapidly, however, with a peculiar springy walk that I would recognise again. He carried himself very erect, like a horse soldier. He had a ginger-colored moustache, longer than mine and curling a little at the ends. His shoulders were very square and his neck rather long. He was neither stout nor thin, and seemed between 30 and 40 years old. His face was medium in stoutness. There were faint hollows under the cheekbones. One thing that impressed me was that the man SEEMED BEWILDERED. He crossed Brushfield-street three times in going from the Prince Albert to the next street, which was Bishopsgate. He clearly did not know where he was going. When he reached Bishopsgate, he stood at the corner and looked up and down the street undecided. Then he made up his mind and started across Brushfield-street rapidly, and kept on down Bishopsgate towards Liverpool-street. I followed as far as Half-Moon street, where my work was, and watched him for some time from the corner, but he kept straight on
                          [my emphasis]
                          there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            Cd
                            Unless you donít think any of the witnesses saw the ripper, then the ripper was seen well by many people before he went on to kill.

                            No, a lie by hutch isnít as simple as that. It would put him as suspect number one by any detective worth his salt.
                            Hello Abby,

                            Assuming for the sake of argument that Hutch was telling the truth he literally peered in the face of the Astrakhan man as opposed to fleeting and distant sightings of the other witnesses. I'm eliminating B.S. man as seen by Schwartz because I don't think he was Stride's killer.

                            I agree with your no detective worth his salt assessment and I don't think the detectives (including Abberline) who questioned Hutch were fools. Since they appeared to give him a pass they either didn't think he was lying or else they concluded that yes, he might have lied for some reason but that regardless he was not involved in Kelly's murder.

                            c.d.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
                              This is an excerpt from the Star, 10 Sep. By carrotty, could she mean 'a long, ginger-coloured moustache'?

                              Taylor went out a moment later without any particular intention of FOLLOWING THE MAN, whom Mrs. Chappell pointed out to him. The man was going towards Bishopsgate, however, and, as this was Taylor's direction, he increased his pace.
                              "It was all I could do to overtake him," he said yesterday, "and I am not a bad walker myself. The man walked very rapidly, however, with a peculiar springy walk that I would recognise again. He carried himself very erect, like a horse soldier. He had a ginger-colored moustache, longer than mine and curling a little at the ends. His shoulders were very square and his neck rather long. He was neither stout nor thin, and seemed between 30 and 40 years old. His face was medium in stoutness. There were faint hollows under the cheekbones. One thing that impressed me was that the man SEEMED BEWILDERED. He crossed Brushfield-street three times in going from the Prince Albert to the next street, which was Bishopsgate. He clearly did not know where he was going. When he reached Bishopsgate, he stood at the corner and looked up and down the street undecided. Then he made up his mind and started across Brushfield-street rapidly, and kept on down Bishopsgate towards Liverpool-street. I followed as far as Half-Moon street, where my work was, and watched him for some time from the corner, but he kept straight on
                              [my emphasis]

                              Interesting to read. By crossing Brushfield St several times, was he bewildered or suspecting that he was being followed and checking ??

                              The "shabby genteel" and "pepper and salt trousers" are similar to previous witness descriptions (Elizabeth Long), Joseph Lawende, PC Smith. Lawende and Smith also said he was fair complexion.

                              Also, if it was Jack, was he heading towards home ? There is a view he lived in that area.

                              Craig

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by GUT View Post
                                Why wast Maurice Lewis called though???
                                Only Macdonald knows the answer to that.
                                Regards, Jon S.

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