John McCarthy

[Sam Flynn]

You lucky people!

John was eldest son of Daniel and Margaret McCarthy.
He was born in Dieppe in 1848
Marries Elizabeth Stephens 1877 at Sr Leonards WHITECHAPEL
1874 Son John born, later to change his name to Steve, have theatrical career, marry music hall star Marie Kendall 1895 and be the grandfather of actress Kay Kendall

Here's a treat - two clips of Jack McCarthy's daughter-in-law, Marie Kendall, on film:

"Did Your First Wife Ever Do That?"

"Just Like the Ivy" (or "Just Loike the Oivy" )

Loverly!

Caz mentioned Bowyer's being sent to "see" if he could collect some rent....it doesnt seem to me like this was an act that Bowyer takes on his own initiative, like he knows he collects rent Friday mornings and heads off to do that. And in this instance, I dont recall seeing that he was specifically going to see any other tenant besides Mary. I believe this was a special trip, indicating that perhaps McCarthy did have some inkling that Mary had earned, or was holding some money.

Of course all he had to do was have spoken with Liz or Mary Ann before he sends Bowyer at 10:45 and he could hear about the drunk serenade to a man in her room.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Caz, that is certainly a possibility. I think the victims chose themselves in some way, and Kelly could have done or said whatever it was that set him off. If she did, then she did it quite a way into the transaction. But we're still left with her drunk and not hooking before midnight and 'spreeish' and hooking in the small hours. I think it would be more likely the other way around!

The issue of the clothes is a bit of a red herring. Whether they were on the chair or in front of the fire with the boots isn't important to me if they were removed by Kelly. That having been said, was it raining all night that night, or was it just raining after midnight? Because if it was raining all night, then she would have put her boots near the fire to dry at any time. If just after midnight, it's clear corroborative evidence that she went out. In which case Kudzu coule be telling the truth.

[caz]

I'll tell you what doesn't hunt: Mary Jane Kelly in her frillies. He doesn't hang about with the other victims, he cuts their throats, hikes up their skirts and does his thing. Not Mary Jane, though. She's allowed to get all undressed and relaxed. That, to me, screams 'someone who knew her'. Because if it was a bad trick, if it was the Ripper, who told her he was hiring her for the night, why would he keep her alive long enough to undress? As soon as she reaches down to unhook her bodice from her skirt, he could have jumped her and overpowered her and killed her shockingly easily. If he wanted her naked, he could have undressed her afterwards. But there really isn't any evidence to suggest he did. I can't see him neatly folding all her clothes nicely on the chair before ripping her apart. And that's why I sit on the was-she-or-wasn't-she-a-Ripper-victim fence. And if she wasn't, there is no reason why McCarthy couldn't have killed her.

So let's now do what I don't want to do, but feel I should do in order to give a possible scenario for her death. Has it not occurred to you that Kelly could have been blackmailing McCarthy? That she had something on him, disclosed it to him, and then suggested that it might be nice if he let her off paying the rent for a while until she got back on her feet? This is pure speculation. I can't and won't suggest it as fact. But if I were writing a thriller about something like this, I would use it to explain why, on the night she died, Mary Jane Kelly spent her time getting drunk in a pub rather than hawking her mutton down Leman St or wherever. She sure wasn't worried about eviction. You might say that's rubbish. It probably is. But it would be a damn good reason to get rid of her, and clearly not one that's occurred to you.

Hi Chava,

It does hunt if the ripper was a regular user of prostitutes and therefore left far more alive than dead - in which case MJK could easily have qualified initially as one of the lucky ones, before he thought: “Well here she is, ‘all undressed and relaxed’, it would be rude not to…” and so it becomes her unlucky night.

I can't see him neatly folding all her clothes nicely on the chair either. That’s because, as Sam has pointed out on many an occasion, there is no contemporary support for her clothes being folded at all, never mind neatly. I think she probably draped her cold, possibly damp outdoor clothes over the chair, ready to be put on again in the morning.

McCarthy sent Bowyer round in the morning to collect whatever Mary may have had for him. He may have heard that she had company (singing for her supper with Blotchy perhaps) but I think it’s a safe bet that he wasn’t expecting Bowyer to find her without a penny piece on her person and without much of a person on her either.

Unless it was part of a weekly ritual that would have looked suspicious had he not sent Bowyer round when he did, I think McCarthy, had he murdered Mary himself, would not have been instrumental in her body being discovered if he could help it. Also, what would have possessed him to kill her in her own room and then have to make it look like the ripper’s work, if she was blackmailing him to get off paying her arrears? He would have got rid of his blackmailer, only to be left landlord of one of the most horrific crime scenes in history, and the whole court tainted by association. What a mistake-a to make-a.

I would like to know what conversations McCarthy and Abberline had after the murder. I have no doubt that the landlord would have been able to help with a lot more information than we have on record about the nightly comings and goings he would have witnessed. For starters, would he not have been asked if he knew this George Hutchinson fellow? Maybe he ‘vouched’ for him in some way, or confirmed that he sometimes saw the man with Mary or coming and going from the court.

Love,

Caz
X

[ianincleveland]

The Krays gave lots of money to charity,indeed they were very generous with other peoples money that theyd extorted one way or another.They too often got great right ups in the local press which seemed to big them up and give rise to the legend they were "lovely boys".They both killed.

McCarthy may well have done a lot for charity,but as the illegal prizefighting shows he wasnt exactly a saint.

Now im pretty sure he werent JTR,but IF Kelly wasnt a JTR murder and the MO with regards to the age of the victim and the fact she died indoors(though Sutcliffe too killed one of his victims indoors) then Mccarthy, a landlord who cant produce a key is a very suspicous character with his allowing 6 weeks of rent arrears(if that got out theyd all be knocking him for rent) and the fact he couldnt produce a spare key.Now did he bash the door off every time numerous tenants upped and left and didnt leave him the keys???

im of the opinion that JTR maybe only murdered 3 times...Nicholls,Chapman and Eddowes.Stride and Kelly im undecided about.

Now i have heard that kelly was pregnant at the time of her death,i may be wrong there but im sure ive read this.maybe mccarthy was the father and he didnt want Mrs.McCarthy to know so when MJK threatened to tell he lost his rag.

[Pinkerton]

I am afraid carrotty mustache and Jewish apparence can be ruled out.

There does, however, exist a contemporary newspaper sketch of McCarthy:

Nice one Glenn! Can you point me to the source of this illustration?

[Sam Flynn]

Found the following principal Catholic Cemetries,with the date of first register. I cannot say which Parishes they served.

Roman Catholic Cemeteries in Victorian London ~

Mortlake Catholic Cemetery, North Worple Way (1852)
St Mary's Cemetery, Harrow Road, Kensal Green (1858)
St Patrick's Leytonstone Cemetery, Langthorne Road (1861)

Thanks for digging out that information so quickly, Jon. It seems that St Patrick's, Leytonstone would have been the closest Catholic cemetery, being as it was a little under 5 miles away from where McCarthy and Kelly died. This is in comparison with Mortlake (circa 13 miles away) and Kensal Green (circa 10 miles). Small wonder, then, that both Kelly and McCarthy ended up in the same graveyard.

[Jon Guy]

Of course, both Kelly and McCarthy were ostensibly of Irish lineage. Out of interest, does anyone know which other Irish/Catholic cemeteries would have served the district?

Hi Sam

Found the following principal Catholic Cemetries,with the date of first register. I cannot say which Parishes they served.

Roman Catholic Cemeteries in Victorian London ~

Mortlake Catholic Cemetery, North Worple Way (1852)
St Mary's Cemetery, Harrow Road, Kensal Green (1858)
St Patrick's Leytonstone Cemetery, Langthorne Road (1861)

[Ben]

Anyone remember Reggie Kray's funeral? The East End always gives a good funeral...

Probably not in the case of Jack himself, Chava, interred just a few feet away from the Kray plot.

[Sam Flynn]

This is getting more like the McCann thread every day... must be some weird form of prejudice against people with Irish names.

[Chava]

Anyone remember Reggie Kray's funeral? Black-plumed horses drawing a flower-bedecked coffin with other floral tributes massed around it: 'Beloved' written out in large white flowers and 'gent' in the same medium on the other side. The East End always gives a good funeral...

[Sam Flynn]

Interesting that John McCarthy was buried in the same cemetery as Mary Jane Kelly

Of course, both Kelly and McCarthy were ostensibly of Irish lineage. Out of interest, does anyone know which other Irish/Catholic cemeteries would have served the district?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

EAST LONDON OBSERVER, June 20th 1934.

A SPITALFIELDS WORTHY - DEATH AND FUNERAL OF MR JOHN McCARTHY. OLDEST SUBSCRIBER TO THE EAST LONDON OBSERVER.

"It is with great regret that we have to record the death on the 17th inst. of Mr John McCarthy for many years a resident of Duval Street, Spitalfields and who was held in the highest esteem by a large circle of East Londoners. He was 83 years of age and was the oldest subscriber on the books of the East London Observer, dating back to March 1888. He went in 1920 to reside in Clapham and enjoyed good health until earlier this year when he had a bad fall which was the beginning of heart trouble, but his end was quite peaceful. In Clapham he made a large number of local friends but always retained his interest in and association with East London.

"The deceased gentleman was a kind hearted man and a generous subscriber to local charities. He was life governor of several hospitals. Personally, Mr McCarthy was the friend of workers at Spitalfields Market, who found him a "real pal". In fact he was always giving a helping hand to somebody. For many years yet his memory will keep green in the district where his daughter still resides.

"The funeral took place last Thursday week, the internment being in the family grave at St Patrick's Cemetery, Leytonstone. On the way from Clapham, the cortege made a detour and traversed several of the streets around the market."

Interesting that John McCarthy was buried in the same cemetery as Mary Jane Kelly.

Regards,

Simon

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

By the way...Do we have a physical description of John McCarthy anywhere?

Short, stocky, Jewish appearance, with a carroty mustache perhaps?

I am afraid carrotty mustache and Jewish apparence can be ruled out.

There does, however, exist a contemporary newspaper sketch of McCarthy:

[Fisherman]

Hi Chava!

First of all, I would like to take the opportunity to join White-Knight in his praise for your thinking outside the box - such things are always as needed as they are welcome.
My own stance, however, is that Kelly was the Rippers deed, and that McCarthy had nothing to do with it.
I believe that the simple answer to your question why Kelly was allowed to run up a debt lies in McCarthys knowledge about Kelly prostituting herself. As long as Barnett could provide for them both, McCarthy got his money, and Kelly in all probability did not have to walk the streets. When Barnett lost his employment, there would have been a period when McCarthy may have felt quite safe, having two horses to gamble on:
1. Either Barnett would find a new employment and move back in with Kelly again, and McCarthy would get his money, or
2. Kelly would have to hit the streets full time again, prostituting herself - and McCarthy would get his money.
So it seems that the decision on McCarthys behalf to sit tight was a very logical one – and of course, when Kelly was killed on November 9, it probably happened at the worst possible occasion, as wiewed economically by McCarthy. And my guess is that his interest in Kelly was first and foremost economical.
Like you wisely say, all of this does not go to rule him out arbitrarily. But when you weigh it in together with the character of the Kelly deed and it´s couplings to mainly the Chapman slaying, I would say that to me, McCarthy is not a strong contender for this particular murder.

All the best,
Fisherman