A Human Tiger

[Debra A]

Most interesting, Debra. Among other things, this will mean that the dismembered bodies Dr Biggs of Marriott fame have seen, were quite probably not victims who had had their limbs removed at the joints.

That alone says a lot about the validity of his input in the dismemberment issue. That is not to say that Biggs is not a trustworthy source. It is instead to say that no matter how much of an expert you are, when you are underinformed about an errand, you will not be able to make any useful assessment of it.

Well, there is no doubt that Guy N. Rutty is duly qualified to comment on this and so his opinion must count for something.

[Trevor Marriott]

It is instead to say that no matter how much of an expert you are, when you are underinformed about an errand, you will not be able to make any useful assessment of it.

You should read and digest what you print as that applies to self proclaimed experts like you.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

The book edited by Guy N. Rutty looks like it contains a lot of information about dismemberment murders . The author talks about 'typical' dismemberment after homicide by removing the head, the legs through the femur(not the joints) etc and he also discusses rarer cases of dismemberment after homicide where the body has been opened up and eviscerated and also one rare case where the skin, subcutaneous tissue and muscle was removed in square and oblong segments. A picture of such a 'segment' is also included.

[Fisherman]

This is off topic for this thread but seeing as there is some discussion on pathologists going on; I came across this the other day and thought it very interesting as this pathologist (with impressive qualifications too) is saying exactly the same as Hebbert did about observations of how a body dismembered at the joints might point to dismemberment by a butcher:

Guy N. Rutty and Sarah V. Hainsworth[/B]
"Anatomical Sites of Dismemberment

From the authors' experience, it is unusual for the body's limbs to be removed through the joints. Pathologists will know from experience that that to remove an arm or leg through the shoulder or hip joints is not easy. If such a case is encountered, then it is reasonable to consider that the perpetrator has a degree of knowledge of anatomy and/or butchery skills.."

Most interesting, Debra. Among other things, this will mean that the dismembered bodies Dr Biggs of Marriott fame have seen, were quite probably not victims who had had their limbs removed at the joints.

That alone says a lot about the validity of his input in the dismemberment issue. That is not to say that Biggs is not a trustworthy source. It is instead to say that no matter how much of an expert you are, when you are underinformed about an errand, you will not be able to make any useful assessment of it.

[Fisherman]

For the final time I will say to you the same as I said to Fisherman if there are any question you wish to put to Dr Biggs I will gladly put them to him, and post in full and un edited his replies. I have no hidden agenda with regards to these torso, and i would like no more for all to be able to agree on the same findings but that isn't going to happen

Just e mail them over to me.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But if you have no hidden agenda, then why would you not allow me to put my own questions to Biggs directly?

You see, once you refuse that, it makes it look VERY much as if you DO have a hidden agenda.

What you do is to reserve the right to look throught the questions, alter them at will, allow Biggs to see what you want him to see and to treat the answers from him at will - your will.

If you have no problems whatsoever with me asking the questions I want to ask in the way I want to ask them, then why not let me do it? You still have not produced anything that looks like an even remotely acceptable answer to that question.

[Debra A]

No but my consultant gynaecologist tells me that there is no vaginal wall cartilage as such. So I hope that answers your question.

And I put the exact questions to Dr Biggs as I was asked to do. As to how you or others interpret the answers is a matter for you and them, and that interpretation either proves or disprove what you all personally believe. Obviously if what Dr Biggs says goes against a theory, then I understand it is hard to accept, and then we see other ways looked at to try to keep the theories alive by suggesting what he says is not correct.

I think you should all take note of a term he uses frequently and that is "Anything is possible" and with that term goes the balance of probabilities based on what the evidence is to prove or disprove the respective arguments tendered by those who keep crying murder and serial killer.

I have now closed the book on these torso as I feel that all that has needed to be said, has been said and there is no need to keep going over the same issues time and time again.

For the final time I will say to you the same as I said to Fisherman if there are any question you wish to put to Dr Biggs I will gladly put them to him, and post in full and un edited his replies. I have no hidden agenda with regards to these torso, and i would like no more for all to be able to agree on the same findings but that isn't going to happen

Just e mail them over to me.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes. Anything is possible, Trevor! Please take note because that means we should also consider murder or a series of murders or links to JTR too, which is what some choose to discuss-the murders as a series.

Dismemberment murders were, and still are rare. I have a figure from a reliable source saying there were about 3 a year in the UK between 2003 and 2014. The same is true for the LVP, rare as well. So if we are discussing probabilities-what are the odds that four female bodies aged 21-45, dismembered at the joints and dumped in and around a similar area of the Thames between 87-89 and disarticulated in a way that a modern pathologists considers to be rare, are not related?

[Debra A]

This is off topic for this thread but seeing as there is some discussion on pathologists going on; I came across this the other day and thought it very interesting as this pathologist (with impressive qualifications too) is saying exactly the same as Hebbert did about observations of how a body dismembered at the joints might point to dismemberment by a butcher:

Essentials of Autopsy Practice Advances, Updates and Emerging Technologies
Editors: Rutty, Guy N. (Ed.) 2014

Chapter 4
The Dismembered Body
Guy N. Rutty and Sarah V. Hainsworth


"Anatomical Sites of Dismemberment

From the authors' experience, it is unusual for the body's limbs to be removed through the joints. Pathologists will know from experience that that to remove an arm or leg through the shoulder or hip joints is not easy. If such a case is encountered, then it is reasonable to consider that the perpetrator has a degree of knowledge of anatomy and/or butchery skills.."

Guy Rutty is a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery and has a Medical Doctorate. He is a Fellow of the Royal College of Pathologists and holds the Royal College of Pathologists Diploma in Forensic Pathology. He is a Fellow of the Forensic Science Society and a Founding Fellow of the Faculty of Forensic and Legal Medicine at the Royal College of Physicians. He holds the Foundation Chair in Forensic Pathology at the University of Leicester where he is Chief Forensic Pathologist and he is an Honorary Consultant in Histopathology to the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust and he is a Home Office Registered Forensic Pathologist, having been placed on the Home Office Accredited Register in 1996. He has served as an elected member of Council of the Royal College of Pathologists and acted as the Chair of the Forensic Pathology Specialist Advisory Committee and remains on this Committee to date. He is a visiting Fellow of Cranfield University and sits on the Academic Committee of the Faculty of Forensic and Legal Medicine at the Royal College of Physicians where he is a member of their Research Committee having been the Foundation Chair of the committee. He has been a member of the Policy Delivery Board for Forensic Pathology for the Home Office and is a member of the Netherlands Board of Court Experts Advisory Committee for Standards for Forensic Pathology.

[Debra A]

No but my consultant gynaecologist tells me that there is no vaginal wall cartilage as such. So I hope that answers your question.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Exactly! Yet when several posters told you that you weren't having any of it! It was pretty obvious to everyone except you (as usual) that the author we were discussing had misinterpreted Hebbert's observation on one of the incision descriptions, but even in the face of everyone else's valid observations, you continued to speculate that this non-existant 'incision in the vaginal wall's cartilage' showed a link to abortion or obstetric practices ...and had the gaul to tell the rest of us mere mortals that we shouldn't try and interpret any intent in wound descriptions at the same time!

[Trevor Marriott]

I have not challenged any opinion offered by Dr Biggs. It is your interpretations of our questions and your interpretations of Dr Biggs answers that i challenge-a completely different thing.
No word on the 'vaginal wall's cartilage' from him yet?

No but my consultant gynaecologist tells me that there is no vaginal wall cartilage as such. So I hope that answers your question.

And I put the exact questions to Dr Biggs as I was asked to do. As to how you or others interpret the answers is a matter for you and them, and that interpretation either proves or disprove what you all personally believe. Obviously if what Dr Biggs says goes against a theory, then I understand it is hard to accept, and then we see other ways looked at to try to keep the theories alive by suggesting what he says is not correct.

I think you should all take note of a term he uses frequently and that is "Anything is possible" and with that term goes the balance of probabilities based on what the evidence is to prove or disprove the respective arguments tendered by those who keep crying murder and serial killer.

I have now closed the book on these torso as I feel that all that has needed to be said, has been said and there is no need to keep going over the same issues time and time again.

For the final time I will say to you the same as I said to Fisherman if there are any question you wish to put to Dr Biggs I will gladly put them to him, and post in full and un edited his replies. I have no hidden agenda with regards to these torso, and i would like no more for all to be able to agree on the same findings but that isn't going to happen

Just e mail them over to me.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

But that is not what we are discussing.

We are discussing whether I can put questions of my own to Biggs, without having them filtered through you.

Why are you changing the subject? Please answere the question. Itīs either "yes, of course you can" or "no, I will not let anyone share information with Biggs".

It is an easy enough thing to answer.

You have the terms accept or reject.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Dr Biggs is a very busy man and we both have a good working relationship. It would not be right to open the door for the world and his brother to keep contacting him with regards to issues that have already been covered. But in your case and that of Debras who have challenged his opinions I have been prepared to ask him clarification questions simlpy to bring these issues to a close.

I have not challenged any opinion offered by Dr Biggs. It is your interpretations of our questions and your interpretations of Dr Biggs answers that i challenge-a completely different thing.
No word on the 'vaginal wall's cartilage' from him yet?

[Fisherman]

The ball is in your court I dont need to know the answers. As far as i am concerned Dr Biggs has made it clear that it cannot be proven that

There is a signature to the torsos
That there is evidence of homicides
That there is any connection between The Whitechapel victims and the torsos.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But that is not what we are discussing.

We are discussing whether I can put questions of my own to Biggs, without having them filtered through you.

Why are you changing the subject? Please answere the question. Itīs either "yes, of course you can" or "no, I will not let anyone share information with Biggs".

It is an easy enough thing to answer.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor Marriott: I am willing, put the questions in writing to me and I will send them to him and post both the questions and the answers in reply.

But why would you need to act as a middle-man, Trevor? Just contact the good doctor and ask him if you can forward his address to a fellow Ripperologist who has a few questions to ask.

How hard can it be, Trevor? And think of all the valuable time you would save. Plus the shining reputation as a generous and benevolent man you would gain!

Dr Biggs is a very busy man and we both have a good working relationship. It would not be right to open the door for the world and his brother to keep contacting him with regards to issues that have already been covered. But in your case and that of Debras who have challenged his opinions I have been prepared to ask him clarification questions simlpy to bring these issues to a close.

We are not speaking of the world and his brother, we are speaking of me only. And what I am going to ask him has definitely not been covered. So why would it be more timeconsuming to answer my questions than yours? I fail to understand that, I must say.

But these questions will be final. I think he has been more than helpful in assisting and giving his expert opinions. So if you are going to do it please make sure you ask all you need to ask in one go.

Would that not be for Biggs himself to decide? Itīs all good and well to be protective on other peopleīs behalf, but that must surely be the call of the good doctor?
To begin with, letīs just ask him if he is willing to spek through any other channel than you, Trevor, shall we! If we donīt ask, we will never know, will we?

The ball is in your court I dont need to know the answers. As far as i am concerned Dr Biggs has made it clear that it cannot be proven that

There is a signature to the torsos
That there is evidence of homicides
That there is any connection between The Whitechapel victims and the torsos.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

Trevor Marriott: I am willing, put the questions in writing to me and I will send them to him and post both the questions and the answers in reply.

But why would you need to act as a middle-man, Trevor? Just contact the good doctor and ask him if you can forward his address to a fellow Ripperologist who has a few questions to ask.

How hard can it be, Trevor? And think of all the valuable time you would save. Plus the shining reputation as a generous and benevolent man you would gain!

Dr Biggs is a very busy man and we both have a good working relationship. It would not be right to open the door for the world and his brother to keep contacting him with regards to issues that have already been covered. But in your case and that of Debras who have challenged his opinions I have been prepared to ask him clarification questions simlpy to bring these issues to a close.

We are not speaking of the world and his brother, we are speaking of me only. And what I am going to ask him has definitely not been covered. So why would it be more timeconsuming to answer my questions than yours? I fail to understand that, I must say.

But these questions will be final. I think he has been more than helpful in assisting and giving his expert opinions. So if you are going to do it please make sure you ask all you need to ask in one go.

Would that not be for Biggs himself to decide? Itīs all good and well to be protective on other peopleīs behalf, but that must surely be the call of the good doctor?
To begin with, letīs just ask him if he is willing to spek through any other channel than you, Trevor, shall we! If we donīt ask, we will never know, will we?

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, Trevor, if you were to ask the questions of Dr Biggs, I am afraid.

Can you explain why you are unwilling to let me do the asking myself?

I am willing, put the questions in writing to me and I will send them to him and post both the questions and the answers in reply.

Dr Biggs is a very busy man and we both have a good working relationship. It would not be right to open the door for the world and his brother to keep contacting him with regards to issues that have already been covered. But in your case and that of Debras who have challenged his opinions I have been prepared to ask him clarification questions simlpy to bring these issues to a close.

But these questions will be final. I think he has been more than helpful in assisting and giving his expert opinions. So if you are going to do it please make sure you ask all you need to ask in one go.

You can e mail me the questions over

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk