Fleming/Hutchinson theory?

[Rubyretro]

I actually think that nearly all the details Barnett repeated about Kelly’s life were nonsense as she lied to him – and I base this on the fact that none of it can be substantiated. I doubt she went out with someone called Joe Fleming.

[/QUOTE]

I've made this remark before, but will just have to keep making it as long as it keeps coming up :

We have two people -Barnett and Kelly- living together in one tiny space.
They have no TV, no radio, no books, no boardgames, and precious little entertainment beyond singing or reading the paper together. They must have spent hours and hours talking to each other....far more than many couples do today.

I certainly think that Mary embroidered her accounts of herself to appear more interesting, but how could she possibly have kept up an entirely fictitious story without tripping herself up all the time trying to remember what she'd said before ? What an effort !...for what ? It's not as if she was trying to make out that she was a virgin before she met him or something..

Furthermore, Barnett and Kelly seem to have been close friends above and beyond their sexual relationship. Barnett was still visiting her after the break up, and was worried about not being able to help her out with some money.

Surely he would not consider the woman a friend if he thought that she
didn't trust him enough to be honest about herself ?

So what has come down to us is certainly a mixture of fact and fiction..or
glamourised truth. The fact that it is unsubstantiated only means that we have yet to substantiate it....but in the great scheme of time, we've only been looking for a very short while, and probably in the wrong place.

I would guess that Mary had lived with a Joe Fleming. And I don't believe at all
that Hutch & Fleming were the same person.

[Lechmere]

Yes it is not credible to present a case that is based on the police failing to 'check out' Hutchinson - and for him to pass muster he would have to clear those tests - eg where he had worked (and he did work, he just wasn't in regular employment), where he was from (Norwood), and so forth. The police regularly checked out the lodging houses so he may have had cast iron alibis for the previous murders anyway.

The Victoria Home Fleming was from Bethnal Green. Hutchinson went about on at least two days in the company of policemen looking for the A-man. What of some geezer had gone up to him and said 'Wotcher Fleming - wot you doing wiv the Rozzer'. The game would have been up pretty sharpish.

[Wickerman]

Suppose Fleming was known as "George Hutchinson" in the VH, how could the police "stumble on his true identity" ? He was a perfect nobody, wasn't he ?

Hi Dave.
Yes, Hutchinson was a nobody, so far as we can tell.
What I was trying to recall, perhaps mistakenly, was that Fleming/Evans was known to police due to violence & assaults?, or that he had at least left a paper trail with the police and/or institutions?

I was thinking that if Fleming/Evans was known to police why would he pretend to be someone else, especially in a high profile case as this.
The police must have checked Hutchinson's background, what would they find if he truely was a nobody?

Recall, even though Maxwell's statement was highly controversial the police did check out her story. They found the shop where she went to buy the milk that morning just to confirm her claim.
I feel confident the police were not likely to take the word of a witness, even Hutchinson, without being able to establish who he was especially as he claims to have stood right outside Kelly's door while the killer is inside.

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

That Fleming was known as Fleming in the Victoria Home – he is listed as Fleming in the 1891 census.

I agree that that Fleming is almost certainly not Kelly’s Fleming due to his height.
The skinny bit could just be the result of several years of institutionalised living. The good doctors in the insane asylum would hardly say he was ill or in poor condition after years of neglect and poor treatment, which in this period would almost certainly have been the lot of your average inmate in a long term institution.
What a waste.
I don’t think it’s credible to build a case on the height being entered in error in the hospital records.

I actually think that nearly all the details Barnett repeated about Kelly’s life were nonsense as she lied to him – and I base this on the fact that none of it can be substantiated. I doubt she went out with someone called Joe Fleming.

[Malcolm X]

i personally think that he heard her singing, but he might have targeted her instead, from two weeks earlier etc, we just dont know for sure, but no suspect was seen over 6ft tall, let alone someone that tall !

.

[DVV]

Hi Malcolm

it is impossible that JTR is this tall, because someone as tall as this would DEFINITELY be mentioned as being seen quite often. .

Right you are, and Mary's ex-fiancé couldn't be as tall as well - had it been the case, she would have told Barnett and her friends, obviously.

[Malcolm X]

i dont even know why this thread even exists, 6ft 7'' is flipping massive, he'd be as tall as a skyscraper, he'd stand out like a sore thumb nowadays and even more so back then.... he would look like a circus freak!

it is impossible that JTR is this tall, because someone as tall as this would DEFINITELY be mentioned as being seen quite often. .

[DVV]

Are you suggesting F/E gave a false name (Hutchinson) in an attempt to become a star witness, to sit and be interviewed by numerous police officials without anyone of them recognising him or stumbling on his true identity?

Thanks, Jon S.

Hi Jon

sorry I didn't pay attention to your question.

Suppose Fleming was known as "George Hutchinson" in the VH, how could the police "stumble on his true identity" ? He was a perfect nobody, wasn't he ?

[DVV]

Not exceptionally : incredibly. And that's why I don't believe he was so tall and skinny (and healthy...!).

6'7...from the lower class...in 1888....6'7 and 70 kg and healthy....and this incredible height never mentioned by Mary...neither to Barnett nor Venturney...???

No no no...impossible, really impossible....

I'd be pleased to find the height of his father in Shoreditch infirmary records, btw....

[Lechmere]

That Fleming was exceptionally tall - and skinny.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

we do have some documents from the asylum, but no pic that I'm aware of.

And yes, I'm still of opinion that GH was JF (see the old thread "Alias Fleming and Hutch"...or something like this).

Amitiés
David

[Wickerman]

Dave.
Excuse me for asking, but its been years since I read-up on the records of Fleming/Evans.

Wasn't there a recorded history (asylum, or inmate?).
What I'm getting at is, wouldn't Fleming/Evans have had a record and been photographed?
Are you suggesting F/E gave a false name (Hutchinson) in an attempt to become a star witness, to sit and be interviewed by numerous police officials without anyone of them recognising him or stumbling on his true identity?

Thanks, Jon S.

[DVV]

Hello my dear, ok I'll check that thread.

And yes, I'm candid enough to consider that Flemtchinson did write it !

(Je vais très bien, merci, et j'espère que toi aussi.)

Bisous bisous

[Rubyretro]

Hi David ! (j'espére que tu vas bien ?)

You didn't join in The Apron thread.

If you think that Fleming/Hutchinson was the killer -do you think that he wrote the graffito ?

[DVV]

Hello Morgana. You may wish to chat up David Vo Van. If I recall properly he is the resident expert on that theory.

Cheers.
LC

Oh !!!!

Yes I am.