Fleming/Hutchinson theory?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Although its very tempting to speculate all sorts of theories involving Fleming and Hutch, we simply have no ''concrete'' evidence[ sorry about the pun.] that the plasterer Fleming was the actual Joe, that was Kelly's ex boyfriend.
We can surely safely believe that the 6'7'' James Evans was not Mary'S ex beau, for obvious reasons, and we have no reason to doubt the records stating his height, it is there in black and white.
The name Joseph was extremely common, and Fleming is hardly unique, and plasterers were plentiful , especially as he was described as a plasterers labourer.
The suggestion that Fleming was Hutchinson is not a logical suggestion, unless proven otherwise, the latter was Topping, and I could not be more confident with that.
He is the only man that has ever been identified [ by a member of his family] to have been the witness, and I can no suspicious circumstances in that .
Casebook puts forward the publication 'The Ripper and the Royals' as casting doubt on Topping's son Reg's claims, however I heard the same account at least 18 years earlier[ as is well documented] so I have different views.
We have no idea who the other 'Joe' in Kelly's life was, he was described as a Costermonger , indeed he may have been the very man that Mrs Maxwell claims to have seen with Mary at 845am on the morning of the 9th ie dressed as a market porter.
A costermonger is a seller of fruit/vegetables from a barrow, not a plasterer, of course it is possible that this was a reference to Joe Barnett.
A good deal of this case can be concluded in many ways, but despite the confusion we have to assume that two men of the same name ie Joe were in Kelly's life.
It could be suggested, that although the ill-user of Mary was in fact Barnett,it was the other Joe she could not stand, and the whole scene got confused by court residents.
There is much more to unravel, without making Hutchinson a man of many faces involved in all sorts of goings ons.
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

No more so, and no less so

My point exactly. In reply to the assertion that he could have been, at "best", MJK's murderer, but certainly not a serial killer.

However, if we do look at his biographical details, then we can't ascertain that this Fleming was Mary's 'Joe'

I think we reasonably can. And that's why it has been generally accepted, even by people who do not believe he was a killer, nor passed himself as Hutch.

In any case, Fleming's identity and biography is much more documented than Hutch's.
Indeed, if Hutch's identitiy was as well ascertained than that of Fleming, I would dismiss my theory (as Sam Flynn did after the Toppy signature episode) as unviable.
But Hutch is as elusive as ever, for those who have rejected the Toppy solution.

and we can certainly say that, if he was, he couldn't have successfully passed himself off as the Hutchinson who went to the Police.

I'm curious to hear why we "can certainly say that", Ruby.

And have to maintain that Fleming had much more to worry than Hutch after the inquest : he was Wideawake Hat just like Hutch, and in addition, he knew his name had been noted by the police as the victim's violent ex-boyfriend and regular visitor.

Deux raisons valent mieux qu'une, n'est-ce pas ma chère ?

[Rubyretro]

if we forget his bioraphical details, he could be a serial killer as well as many other unknown locals could be

No more so, and no less so, taking that statement as bald fact.

However, if we do look at his biographical details, then we can't ascertain that this Fleming was Mary's 'Joe', and we can certainly say that, if he was, he couldn't have successfully passed himself off as the Hutchinson who went to the Police.

[DVV]

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate for Kelly's murderer, just from the point of view of a spurned lover
Regards, Jon S.

Jon, do you really think that a man with early criminal records and 28 years in the loony bin as a paranoid should be excluded as a possible ripper ?

On which basis are you saying Fleming can't be a serial killer ?

Even if we forget his bioraphical details, he could be a serial killer as well as many other unknown locals could be....and indeed, there was a serial killer in the area.

Why it couldn't be Fleming a priori is beyond me, my dear.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

I suspect the Sunday Morning Market was an ideal place for an out of work labourer like hutchinson to find work. A policeman was on point duty at Markets in fact I found a contemporary photo of a PC in the middle of the Petticoat Lane market.
I don't think he went searching for the PC, one was just readily available.

In any case, it means Hutch conceived "suspicions" towards AM somtime between Friday night and Sunday morning. Yet, he did not come forward.

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate

That the most butchered victim, the last of the automn, the only ripper victim ever killed indoors, had a paranoid ex-fiancé who moved to Whitechapel in 1888, never came forward as a witness and finally died in Claybury after 28 years in the loony bin, will ever make Fleming a viable and rather excellent suspect.

the suggestion he posed as Hutchinson is a little far out for me.

This fascinating case may well have an equally fascinating solution. No need to believe in Flemtchinson to post here.

Apparently, there were only two "old acquaintances" MJK was still in touch with in 1888 : Joe and Hutch. Joe used to give her money, according to Venturney, and Hutch said he had occasionally given her money. Both were dossing at the Victoria Home. None of them came forward in time.

Add to this George Hutchinson's elusiveness (unless you're a Toppy freak).

The fact that Fleming is known for having used an alias (James Evans). (Some have argued that the use of an alias was common practice...but I fail to see how this could be conter-argument.... )

And lastly, the excellent reasons Fleming had to come forward as Hutch after the inquest, as I've tried to show.

[Rubyretro]

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate for Kelly's murderer, just from the point of view of a spurned lover,

He would have been exceedingly dim to kill her when she was just newly single again.

[Wickerman]

Why searching for a policeman if he had no suspicion ?

Hi Dave.
I suspect the Sunday Morning Market was an ideal place for an out of work labourer like hutchinson to find work. A policeman was on point duty at Markets in fact I found a contemporary photo of a PC in the middle of the Petticoat Lane market.
I don't think he went searching for the PC, one was just readily available.

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate for Kelly's murderer, just from the point of view of a spurned lover, but the suggestion he posed as Hutchinson is a little far out for me. I'll leave others who are better informed on this theory to hash it out :-)

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Hi DVV

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him

He might have been. If he heard SL's testimoney at the inquest, or even knew she attended, he may have feared that she saw and recoginized him whilst he waited and watched up the court.

Hi Abby

you've missed the point : I precisely postulate Fleming = Wideawake Hat - just as the postulate is Hutch = Wideawake Hat on some Hutch threads.

I observe that Fleming, if the killer, in addition to Lewis testimony, could have thought the police would try to trace him as Joe Fleming - an important witness, since he was the victim ex-fiancé, her regular visitor, and was now known for having "ill-used" her at times.

So yes, Fleming was in a more delicate situation than Hutch after the inquest.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jon

the TOD is indeed an important detail. As for Hutch saying he had no suspicion, I think we can it with a pinch of salt. First, some reports say otherwise, and moreover, there is Hutch story about the "Sunday morning sighting". Why searching for a policeman if he had no suspicion ?

But back to Fleming. Don't you think he had much more reasons to worry than Hutch after the inquest ?

If he was the killer, he knew he had been seen by a witness, and he could be traced, now that the police knew his name and relationship with MJK.

Should he come forward ? or not ?

Both were risky, as I've explained, and in such a context, the creation of Hutch the Witness could be a genuine coup de maître.

That was the best thing to do.

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him (nobody knew he had seen something), while Fleming did hear and read people speaking of him in the papers and at the inquest.

Hi DVV

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him

He might have been. If he heard SL's testimoney at the inquest, or even knew she attended, he may have feared that she saw and recoginized him whilst he waited and watched up the court.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

the TOD is indeed an important detail. As for Hutch saying he had no suspicion, I think we can it with a pinch of salt. First, some reports say otherwise, and moreover, there is Hutch story about the "Sunday morning sighting". Why searching for a policeman if he had no suspicion ?

But back to Fleming. Don't you think he had much more reasons to worry than Hutch after the inquest ?

If he was the killer, he knew he had been seen by a witness, and he could be traced, now that the police knew his name and relationship with MJK.

Should he come forward ? or not ?

Both were risky, as I've explained, and in such a context, the creation of Hutch the Witness could be a genuine coup de maître.

That was the best thing to do.

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him (nobody knew he had seen something), while Fleming did hear and read people speaking of him in the papers and at the inquest.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=miss marple;199435]Ruby ,

Just because he was born in Scotland does not mean he was brought up there. The family may have moved south

,

Very good point -I'm looking forward to reading the results of your research !

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon
I wouldn't say "desperate", Jon. Having been seen near the CS at such a time is something you can worry about, and since it's a fact that Hutch did come forward on Monday evening, he certainly did so for some reason - reasonable or not.

I believe the reason is considerably simpler than some prefer to admit.

A thorough perusal of the weekend papers (Friday evening to Monday morning) shows that there was confusion about Kelly's time of death. Some reliance was being placed on the statements of Maurice Lewis and Mrs Maxwell, therefore Kelly must have died after 9:00am or thereabouts.
No-one 'knew' at what hour Kelly had been murdered.

With all this in mind we can fully understand why Hutchinson commented "...but I had no suspicion that he was the murderer." He would have had no idea that he had seen Kelly with her murderer until the conclusion of the inquest where her time of death was reasonably established.

Once Hutchinson realized her murder must have occured shortly after he left Millers Court the most natural thing to do would be to go to the police, as another boarder advised him to do, unless he was the actual killer of course (which I don't think).

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

People who consider Sarah Lewis as Hutch main motive (to come forward) should logically admit that Fleming had better reasons than Hutch to come forward, because not only was he Wideawake Hat (still assuming JF is the killer), but the police could also try to trace him as an important witness - ex-fiancé, regular visitor, possibly violent with the victim.

But this thread isn't a Fleming vs Hutch, is it ?

[miss marple]

Ruby ,
Just because he was born in Scotland does not mean he was brought up there. The family may have moved south, he may have been brought up in Essex, There were many Irish born soldiers in the Regiment also.
I will continue to hunt. His military record, would still exist.
There would have been a great diversity of accents in the East End anyway.

Miss Marple

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Interesting discussion, I don't believe Hutchinson was Toppy or Fleming.

Nor do I.

What intrigues me is the Military appearance, so I had a look at the Census again.
I have found in the 1881 census a George Hutchinson, Soldier,age 19 based at Infantry Camp, Street Botolph, Colchester First Ward. He was born in Scotland.which would make him 27 in 88. I can't find him in 1891. I will keep looking.

Miss Marple
That is interesting ! -Thankyou Miss Marple.
I am worried that a Scotsman would have had a huge accent which would have perhaps merited a mention in the papers, though ?