Fleming/Hutchinson theory?

[Sally]

Reasons to be Flemimg #1

Closest to 1888 be was a dock labourer.
Or if you prefer a costermonger.
The son of a plasterer isn't a plasterer.
He was 6 foot 7 inches tall.
If this guy was the one then I am sure the police would have got to him when he was sent to the lunatic asylum as they clearly kept themselves informed about admissions.

I think there's a good chance Kelly made the Fleming story up anyway.

No, really



Oh, Where to start? So many choices...

Closest to 1888 be was a dock labourer.
Or if you prefer a costermonger.

Hmm. And in 1891 he was a... what was it again? Oh yeah 'General Labourer'.
Wasn't Hutchinson a 'General Labourer'? Well, they came from the same class, at least..

The son of a plasterer isn't a plasterer.

Oh, now, you're only saying that because you want Toppy not to have been a plumber Lechmere. Evidence shows that most men were still following their fathers into profession or trade, at least initially, at this time - if they could make a living that way, of course. Sorry, but there it is. Black and white. And you do like the written word for evidence, don't you? Which brings us to..

He was 6 foot 7 inches tall.

Because it says so in the asylum records, right? Because nobody has ever mistranscribed a 6 for a 5? You have read census records, Lechmere, I know this to be true. And you must therefore know that census records (for example) are rife with error. Error in the written record is common enough. Now, this 6'7" doesn't have to be an error. But there are indications that it may be. And those indications (conrtaindications for your argument) have been pointed out already. To ignore them amounts to wilful blindness - they should at the very least receive due consideration. And so, again:-

In the latter half of the 19th century the average height of a man was 5'6-7'. At 6'7", Fleming would have been a giant. Not impossible, but unusual enough to engender caution. And I'm afraid that, as has been said already, a 6'7" man weighing 11st would not have been in good health, he would have been dangerously underweight. Contraindications, see.

If this guy was the one then I am sure the police would have got to him when he was sent to the lunatic asylum as they clearly kept themselves informed about admissions.

I'm not sure what you mean here, Lechmere. What do you mean? 'If this guy was the one' what?

This guy (Joseph Fleming) was living in the Victoria Home in 1891 when he 'went mad'. He was taken from Bishopsgate police station to the infirmary on 30th June - most likely because the police were called to take him from the Victoria Home. You claim that Fleming could not be Hutchinson because he couldn't possibly have passed himself off as Hutchinson because everyone knew he was Fleming - or something.

And yet, apparently he had no trouble in living as James Evans in 1891, in the Victoria Home, when in 1889 he had been living there, in the Victoria Home as... Oh yes, Joseph Fleming. Curiouser and Curiouser.

Obviously, it was possible - obviously, because he apparently did it - And, I think, this rather casts doubt on your assertion that Fleming couldn't possibly be Hutchinson. Theoretically:-

He could have been George Hutchinson in 1888
And, Joseph Fleming in 1889
And, James Evans in 1891

And for all you know, he had further aliases (I'm semi-speculating now, I concede)

I'm not saying that this has to be the case, but there really is no sound reason that I've so far seen that excludes the possibility.

And so I can't exclude it.

I think there's a good chance Kelly made the Fleming story up anyway

No, there isn't. There's a better chance that the Joseph Fleming living at the Victoria Home was the same Joseph Fleming with whom Mary Kelly once lived.

[Wickerman]

On which basis are you saying Fleming can't be a serial killer ?

Sorry Dave, you misread me.
I have only ever considered Fleming as Kelly's potential murderer, but never a Ripper suspect, not that he couldn't be, I just never considered him as such.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

He would have been exceedingly dim to kill her when she was just newly single again.

Lets not run away with the idea that enraged killers require a minimum IQ level.
:-)

[Lechmere]

Closest to 1888 be was a dock labourer.
Or if you prefer a costermonger.
The son of a plasterer isn't a plasterer.
He was 6 foot 7 inches tall.
If this guy was the one then I am sure the police would have got to him when he was sent to the lunatic asylum as they clearly kept themselves informed about admissions.

I think there's a good chance Kelly made the Fleming story up anyway.

[DVV]

Lol

Never mentioned because it wasn't him.

Problem is that the Joseph Fleming who died at Claybury was from Bethnal Green, born 1859, and was the son of a plasterer named Richard Fleming.

And was thus most probably Mary's ex-fiancé (a plasterer from Bethnal Green named Joe Fleming, as described by Barnett). Until you find a better Fleming, which I doubt.

The name, the trade, the location, the age...It's a perfect match.

One has to be mad, or to provide solid evidence, to say "it wasn't him".

[Sally]

Never mentioned because it wasn't him.

Oh you wish, Lechmere..

[Lechmere]

Never mentioned because it wasn't him.

[DVV]

the 6'7'' Fleming..alias Evans

It may be time to forget that old joke.
6'7 in the lower class, in 1888.
6'7 for 70kg.
6'7, 70kg and healthy.

And more simply : THAT TALL, and this "detail" never mentioned by Kelly/Barnett/Venturney ?

Henrietta never said gigantism had been in the family for 160 years.
She said insanity.

[DVV]

Hi Richard

I am not convinced Venturney's comments were reported accurately, but mayby they were?
Regards Richard.

Sure they were. See her police statement (9 Nov) : "She told me she was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had often ill-used her because she cohabited with Joe (Barnett)"

As for Fleming's trade, I can't see any problem. Barnett talked of Fleming's trade at the time he was living with Kelly : "She lived at one time with a Morganstone, and with Joseph Flemming, she was very fond of him. He was a mason's plasterer. He lived in Bethnal Green Road."

Venturney said he might have been a costermonger. She wasn't sure, hence her : "I think he was a costermonger." By the by, have a quick look at the Costermonger thread, you'll see they weren't mere vegetable dealers, it was something rough.

Finally, we have Fleming the dock labourer in 1889. Which proves he wasn't a plasterer anymore. The picture is thus that of a local man trying to survive by every mean. Perhaps with "no regular employment".

Note also, Richard, that according to your logic, Toppy can't be Hutch since Hutch wasn't a plumber.

[richardnunweek]

Hi DVV,
I am well aware of Venturney's comment, however the fact that the 'other Joe' was thought to have been a Costermonger would suggest that he may not have been the 6'7'' Fleming..alias Evans..occupation plasterers labourer.
I suggested that she might have been talking about Barnett simply because at the time of the murder he was a costermonger selling oranges, and that somewhere along the line the Joe's got mixed up in the press.
It would appear that another man called Joe had connections to Kelly, that she was fond of , but apparently treated her badly because of her affections to the other, however the only information we have of any aggravation comes from Barnett himself ie, ''Our quarrel's were soon over''
I get the impression that the jealously angle may have derived from Barnett, who appears capable of having his say, and that he may have been the ill-user , leaving Kelly to remark''I cannot bear the man''.
Summing up.
I am not convinced Venturney's comments were reported accurately, but mayby they were?
Regards Richard.

[Lechmere]

“the immature/ imbecilic way that he's toyed with his knife does not reflect somebody that simply hates women, he's like a moron, he's very purile... he's cut off her breasts, this is the sort of thing a semi-insane retard would do.
Or Lechmere”

Not lately I can assure you.

[Rubyretro]

!

[QUOTE]]this is the sort of thing a semi-insane retard would do[/QUOTE.
Or Lechmere. You have a good thumbnail sketch.

[Malcolm X]

yes H is a real mystery, the case just dies on you, there's nothing after the 13th november , just the rubbish from his son Reg years later.

if JTR is someone called GH, then he's very clever indeed, he's just melted away and never killed again, he also has a very strong will-power/self- control, and if he did kill again then he's downgraded and switched his M.O, plus left London.... he must have !

i'm very unhappy with all of this, you see; i doubt he died/ went insane and i doubt someone like this stopped killing.

the immature/ imbecilic way that he's toyed with his knife does not reflect somebody that simply hates women, he's like a moron, he's very purile... he's cut off her breasts, this is the sort of thing a semi-insane retard would do.

GH is probably someone that we dont know yet, but if so then we have a real problem with these sigs, because they look too close to comfort for me!

because these Signatures are the biggest problem of all, it looks like this GH has stolen Toppy's signature/ identity, practiced it quite often but has never been that good at it, thus he only risked signing the statement once.

no... this is crap isn't it, because this means that JTR must be the same age.....only 22, plus he must also know him quite well.

maybe these two men were once working together digging roads etc, but both living in different Lodging houses, JTR in Victoria and GH around the corner somewhere.

this maybe a similar situation to Flemming, except he's way too tall and slim.

you see JTR has to call himself something, and thus it could have been ``my father Joe Smith is the guy that saw LA DE DA ``, as you can therefore tell; there is absolutely nothing odd about the name GH, because there's probably quite a few JOE SMITHS, THOMAS SMITH, JOE HARRISs etc in this area too

but what it does mean is that JTR has to pick someone's name that he knew quite well for this final murder, my guess is that this is extremely risky indeed......no idea.... maybe

but what about Toppy on his own as JTR ?...... NO WAY, he is not JTR, he's too young, too boring and stable and it's far too easy to be call him JTR
, it'll be far more complicated than this.

[DVV]

A costermonger is a seller of fruit/vegetables from a barrow, not a plasterer, of course it is possible that this was a reference to Joe Barnett.
Regards Richard.

Oh dear.....Venturney referring to Barnett ????!!!!

Venturney : "She lived with Joe Barnett she frequently got drunk Joe Barnett would not let her go on the streets. Deceased said she was fond of another man named Joe...."

[DVV]

That's the question

Hi Claire

what would Fleming have to gain by pretending to be a man called George Hutchinson (with all the attendant fabulous stories)?

I believe Joe Fleming had two problems after the inquest.

1) Sarah Lewis

2) That the police could well look for him now that they knew his name, at best as an important witness/MK acquaintance, at worst as a possible suspect (the jealous and violent ex-boyfriend).

Understandably, if traced and apprehended, he would have been asked first : Why didn't you come forward (as a good citizen is supposed to do) ?

Having created Hutch, he could reply, if caught as Fleming, that he did give already all the relevant info to the police. But that he did this under an alias, as he wanted no publicity as the victim ex-boyfriend.
Quite a good reason, who would both explain the alias and his initial reluctance to come forward. His past, that of a petty criminal, could also help explaining this reluctance.

And still Astrakhan Man would play his scapegoat partition.

Of course, Abberline would have not easily believed that the jealous and violent ex-fiancé had met Kelly by pure chance that night, after a too long trip to Romford.

It works better with a vague acquaintance ("Mr Hutchinson").