Prosperous plasterer or pauper polisher?

[claire]

Yes, it seems patently obvious that Joe Fleming aka James Evans has to be the son of Henrietta (otherwise, what on earth was she doing claiming the poor so and so as her son in the asylum?).

A word on censuses, though (from someone currently working on the development of the damned thing here in Qatar, where things seem closer to 1881 in all things census if nothing else)...they can take longer than the day that is intended to provide the snapshot current censuses aim for, particularly when you have enumerators going round door to door (as guidance, the one planned for here will use 1000 enumerators for a population of 1.3 million, and will take a little under a month). So migration within that period is perfectly possible, although it's worth checking the date(s) on the top of the enumerators' forms to see what the discrepancy is, if any, between the workhouse census date and that from Crozier T. Secondly, all that is required, and all that has been required, is for the householder to provide any data requested...if Mr Fleming had been in the workhouse in previous weeks, and records had not been updated, I'd imagine that all that would have happened was the enumerator was given a list of names, and no one would check who was still there. So, it's not impossible that the two apparently distinct fellows that Fisherman mentions are, in fact, one person.

Which is an idea that I like quite a lot.

[Sam Flynn]

if Mr Fleming had been in the workhouse in previous weeks, and records had not been updated, I'd imagine that all that would have happened was the enumerator was given a list of names, and no one would check who was still there. So, it's not impossible that the two apparently distinct fellows that Fisherman mentions are, in fact, one person.

Ingenious reasoning, Claire - but that then begs the question: where did the other Joseph Flem(m)ing, son of the impoverished Bethnal Green silk-weavers and born in the same year as "Joe the Plasterer", get to?

[m_w_r]

... the other Joseph Flem(m)ing, son of the impoverished Bethnal Green silk-weavers ...

Sam,

Sorry, it's pedantic, and doesn't affect your point, but where's the evidence that James and Eliza Flem(m)ing, the silk-weavers, had a son called Joseph? They don't have one in the 1861 census. I would agree with you that Joe the Plasterer probably appears once and once only in the 1881 census, and that the other Joseph Flem(m)ing is therefore nothing to do with Mary Kelly, Jack the Ripper, and whatnot. But we may as well be clear - if we split the two Josephs down the middle, one becomes a plasterer and lives in Homerton and then knocks about a bit with Mary Kelly, which is why we know about him; the other one seems most likely to be the son of George and Sarah, and he goes through the Bethnal Green Workhouse School (1871) and, then (1881) the Poplar Union Workhouse, with his (I presume) sister Sarah, who was with him at the former institution, still there (albeit in the branch at Leytonstone) in 1881 at the age of sixteen.

We ought to be a bit careful about multiplying our Flem(m)ings unnecessarily.*

Regards,

Mark

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, it's pedantic, and doesn't affect your point, but where's the evidence that James and Eliza Flem(m)ing, the silk-weavers, had a son called Joseph?

Please don't make me use that ghastly Ancestry.com search engine again, Mark! Others are welcome to try, but life's too short

[m_w_r]

... life's too short

Point taken...

Regards,

Mark

[Sam Flynn]

Point taken...

Actually, Mark - because it's you - I double-checked, and it turns out I posted the wrong details. The silk-weavers' son was James Flemming. You were quite right to nag! So, to put the record straight...

The Joseph Flemming (of lowly parentage) I should have told you about was born in Bethnal Green to George (shoemaker) Flemming and his wife Sarah. He had two (much) older brothers, George and Charles, who were a shoemaker and a wood-chopper respectively. The family may first be found together in the 1861 Census, as follows:



I can't quite make out the street name - it looks like "Tumble Street", but it's unclear. Suffice to say it's Bethnal Green, and this Joe was born there circa 1858/1859. It is he, I believe, who is likely to have ended up as the French polisher workhouse inmate at Poplar in 1881.

[m_w_r]

Sam -

All agreed. It's Turville Street, by the way - I posted all this on page one of this thread.

Regards,

Mark

[Sam Flynn]

Sam - All agreed. It's Turville Street, by the way - I posted all this on page one of this thread.

That was a waste of time on my part , but at least we found him independently! Belated thanks to you for finding him in the first place, Mark - and apologies for the oversight

[m_w_r]

Sam -

A pleasure doing business with you, as always.

Regards,

Mark

[Rob Clack]

Nothing to add, but here's 'The Dolphin' on Turville Street.



Rob

[Sam Flynn]

Nothing to add, but here's 'The Dolphin' on Turville Street.

No worries, Rob - it serves a porpoise

Thanks!

[Suzi]

Flipperring ridiculous!

AND as a by the by Richard Flemming married Henrietta nee MASON (!)

[Suzi]

Nothing to add, but here's 'The Dolphin' on Turville Street.

[ATTACH]4441[/ATTACH]

Rob

Very Princess Alicey isn't it (Without it's other mysteriously disappearing storeys 'tho)- Well very corner of the streety all round- Great pic! (what/who's that- on the first floor balcony over the door??!!!)

Excellent 'lurker' bottom right too!! ''Ello darlin'--- fancy an 'orrible time - Care to see mi' bollard?"

-Flipping brilliant even!
xxx

[m_w_r]

Hi Suzi -

Here's the up-to-date view:

http://deadpubs.co.uk/LondonPubs/Bet.../Dolphin.shtml

Regards,

Mark

[Suzi]

Excellent Mark!
Hasn't changed a great deal to be honest has it- apart from the lurker and the bollards seem to have bred!!!!!

Suz xx