The records from Stone Asylum for Joseph Fleming - transcription

[Sam Flynn]

Lever Street 1895. These are the Guiness Lodging House built between 1892 and 1894

... and here's Fleming visiting his mum:

[George Hutchinson]

Sam, that has just been a VERY laugh out loud moment. And I did. For more than a moment.

PHILIP

[Brenda]

He didn't even have to go inside for a visit. Mom could just come out on the landing and have a face-to-face chat. Even though she lived on the 3rd floor!!

[Fisherman]

Sam asks:
"Might being called "James Evans" have been a delusion on Fleming's part?"

Well, Sam, that is not the kind of question I would answer yes OR no to. But it would surprise me a lot if mother and son were so much agreed on it that they persuaded the notekeeper at the asylum to play along when taking the records...

The best,
Fisherman

[Chris Scott]

As I posted the original entry for the contentious note about Evans's height, you will find below the original of the note about insanity in the family for 160 years
Folks may want to judge the clarity of these entries for themselves

[Fisherman]

Thanks for that, Chris! Once again, that figure 6 can leave us in little doubt. The only alternative is that it was supposed to say 100, but that would require quite a stretch.
More interesting is the fact that it seems that the note about Evans/Fleming being found wandering, and the note about Henriettas statement of family insanity seem not to have been written using the same pen and handwriting...?

The best!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

More interesting is the fact that it seems that the note about Evans/Fleming being found wandering, and the note about Henriettas statement of family insanity seem not to have been written using the same pen and handwriting...?

The product of a later interview, perhaps? Similarly, the "James Evans" entry might have been placed on the file originally, when he was brought in, only for subsequent enquiries to have discovered the patient's true name.

[Fisherman]

God only knows, Sam. But it reamins kind of odd that he goes down as James Evans in spite of his mothers (if that she was) naming him Joseph Fleming.

Do we have any James Evans´s who are born in 1855? Has that been checked out? I think it would be healthy to dive deep into this one, since there are a number of oddities involved..!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Fish - I have no doubt whatsoever that this was the same man. His death certificate gives both names, and Henrietta Fleming was undoubtedly the mother of the plasterer Joe Fleming born in Bethnal Green, as well as "James Evans", the patient. We can only guess at what imbalance led Fleming to give himself that alias (perhaps he was so afraid of his imaginary pursuers that he insisted on being called by that name), but "James Evans" and Joe Fleming were undoubtedly one and the same person.

[Fisherman]

"James Evans" and Joe Fleming were undoubtedly one and the same person."

So it would certainly appear, Sam. But I for one would not mind some more substantiation on the matter. It would be nice, for instance, to have a look at the papers from the facility where the 14-year old Fleming was brought after his failed attempt at burglary, to see whether they had his length recorded. It would be a record from way before the "James Evans-era", and it could put that tiny little gnawing-away doubt to rest.
If I may, I would like to remind you that you earlier on this thread wrote, I believe, that you were "almost certain" that Evans and Fleming were one and the same, and that has now escalated into "no doubt whatsoever". Me, I would settle for the former alternative until further notice, since I cannot for example agree 100 percent that Henrietta Fleming "undoubtedly" was the mother of the James Evans in Stone Asylum. To be perfectly sure of this, we must of course prove that nobody can possibly state that they are the mother of somebody without actually being so.
I do not wish to go into questions of WHY mrs Fleming would do such a thing, only point to the fact that a little more job needs to be done before we can go from a case that seems to be very, very hard to doubt to a case where we KNOW that no doubts, whatsoever, can apply. And that does not mean that I am pushing a point that Evans and Fleming were not one and the same. We have to work from the more likely scenarios when the evidence urges us to - but that does not mean that very, very improbale equals impossible.

Of course, even if things are exactly what they seem to be, that does in no way mean that Fleming/Evans was not the murderer. He remains a very viable candidate, even in a 6.7 shape.

The best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi all,

I'm probably way behind here, but do we have any records on Fleming from the infirmery in Bow where he was committed in 1892 before being sent to Stone?

Thanks,

Ben

[Mitch Rowe]

Flemings a Flop.

Its gotta be 6'1". Didnt they cross their sevens?

It looks like this fleming guy probably led a hard life of drinking cheap rotgut. Dont seem like theres a notorious phantom here. Just another name attached to the cases thats all. A heart breaking story of cheap gin and even cheaper women.

[Scott Nelson]

Sigh.

This thread is a perfect example of why I don't take part in stupid, circular debate

[Ben]

Hi Mitch,

Not sure what you mean here, or what poor quality gin has to do with it.

Plenty of men in the district fell victim to heavy drinking and alcoholism without being incarcerated in an asylum for the rest of their lives, and of those who were locked away on account of their "mania", very few were reported to have ill-used the most brutually murdered victim in the Whitechapel series, or to have moved into the murder district in August of 1888.

I'm not sure how valid the notion of a "notorious phantom" is, for what it's worth.

Cheers,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Its gotta be 6'1". Didnt they cross their sevens?

I don't think such would have been generally the case at the time, Mitch, at least not in Britain. I'm sure the crossed seven was an invention of those beastly "continental" types, that never quite took off in the europhobic UK.