Druitt - A Link to the East End: The People's Palace

[Natalie Severn]

It may be an inconvenient fact Ben,that you have so far preferred to ignore, but ,as I have said before, there were indeed serial killers about in Victorian times and a middle class and an upper working class serial killer at that,one being Dr Cream,who murdered a series of South London prostitutes in Lambeth, another area with vast stretches of slum property in London.He was CAUGHT in the early 1890"s by an ex CID man"s careful "monitoring".The other serial killer,operating concurrently with Dr Cream ,was George Chapman, trained during a long period of apprenticeship in surgery [5 years] by one of Poland"s senior surgeons-his parents footing the bill for his lengthy training.He emigrated to London in 1887 and lived in the East End -including Whitechapel- during 1887-9.He was also "CAUGHT" by London"s police- arrested by Inspector Godley who had worked on the Ripper case via CID during the murder of Mary Ann Nochols.
Also,what you say about the City boundaries in 1888 just aint so.Caz is absolutely on the ball here .Rich and poor rubbed shoulders daily in the City-especially in the area around Aldgate/Houndsditch and St Paul"s"s Carter Lane area.Those are facts.

[caz]

I did describe the City as affluent because, in the main, it was. If you ventured onto Osbourn Street, you would have ventured into non-affluent territory, but that wasn't in the city, was it? If you bothered to read the thread, you may have picked up upon Andy's observation that cultural and class bounderies existed between the City and the East End as well as purely geographical ones. Serial offenders are known to operate within such bounderies.

To argue that common lodging houses weren't suitable bolt-holes is indicative of a woeful lack of understanding as to their nature and history. They were popular with the criminally cooerced precisely because they enabled the miscreants to become proverbial needles in the haystack.

Quote:
Moreover it was run by ex met police officers and those who lodged there were considered to have a good character----as opposed to those who lived in the common lodging houses of the disctrict.

Ah, splendid. So I guess they'd let Denis Rader, Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgway and Harold Shipman straight in if they were around in 1888. They were all of superficially good character too.

Hi Ben,

Coming late to the discussion - as usual - I would just like to ask you a couple of questions:

If a budding Bundy/Sutcliffe/Wright/Jack the Ripper (doesn’t really matter what name we give him) happened to have working and social commitments in 1888 that involved dividing his time between Blackheath, the City and Dorset, when he developed an irresistible urge to seek out unfortunates to murder and mutilate, would you still expect him to have operated within his own cultural, class and geographical boundaries, regardless of how this would have affected his chances of finding (in 1888 remember) suitably vulnerable females and leaving a victim pattern that could not implicate him?

I only ask because you still appear to think there was some sort of invisible, electrified cordon around the area in which the Whitechapel victims were clustered, which would have made such an offender skirt round it when looking for women to attack, to avoid the fatal shock that would surely be delivered if he so much as put one foot over the line separating the City from its victim-rich East End neighbour.

Either that, or you believe the only men capable of committing such ’orrible deeds were those already confined by their culture, class and geography to a life within the cordon. On balance I would prefer the former to be the case, since you have no cause to be a snob and I don’t really have you down for a bigot.

My other question is what evidence do you have of criminals using the Victoria Home as a haystack in which to become needles? It’s entirely circular to claim it was a popular base for criminals and their activities ‘precisely’ because they could remain undetected there. If they were even a little bit successful at remaining undetected, how would you know it was popular with them? Deathbed confessions, perhaps? Thought transference? Or merely another of your assumptions?

I take it you reject the idea of Jack using the organs he took from his victims to relive his experiences later at his own convenience. Not terribly convenient, I don't suppose, fondling a kidney with one hand while masturbating with the other, while twenty Victoria Home dwellers are looking on, wondering what the hell they did to deserve the 1888 version of Britain's Got Talent.

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

What I meant when I said neither Robert Anderson or Macnaghten knew who the Ripper was,because they each chose a different prime suspect, so neither could have known FOR CERTAIN because in that sense they are contradicting each other-two of the most senior police officials on the Investigation.The other who profoundly disagreed the Ripper"s identity was ever known---let alone with any certainty, was the City Chief of Police Henry Smith.
I support Andy"s view here that the Bachert story may have a basis of truth in it.But I agree with Stewart that it has to be purely speculative.




Norma

[aspallek]

Sorry Andy I still don't buy the whole Druit as JtR thing...are you certain he could have murdered Chapman and caught a train back to Blackheath in time to play cricket?...I'm not sure.. I very much enjoyed your pod cast however...

Fascinating stuff as always

Many thanks Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I'm glad you enjoyed the Podcast. I enjoyed doing it. I also think it is rather doubtful that Druitt was JtR but I do believe he is the best named suspect.

In answer to your question, yes Druitt could easily have made his way by train from the East End to Blackheath in plenty of time for the cricket fixture that day. This has been well documented in the other threads. The rail journey takes only about 20 minutes today and would not have taken much longer in 1888. Trains began to run before 7 am. No problem at all. In fact, Druitt's participation in that cricket match is actually a plus for his candidacy as a suspect as it definitely establishes his presence in Greater London at the time at least one of the murders took place.

Oh, and, Stewart,

I know I promised to give up after the last, but -- yes, I know it is a weak point. I have said so. That is why I do not use it as the basis for any theory. Yet, the possibility of its being true cannot be discounted.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Stewart,
While I agree with you that Bachert is entirely unreliable and a thoroughly odd character to boot,I am reminded,when considering at what point senior police were aware of Druitt as a suspect,of Macnaghten"s remark.In his autobiography he stated his belief that
"Jack the Ripper was pulled from the Thames "after he had knocked out a Commissioner of police [this must be Warren] and very nearly settled the hash of one of Her Majesty"s Principal Secretaries of State[this is Matthews].
So he is referring here to the press condemnation of Matthews,the resignation of Warren and the suicide of Druitt.
This to my mind refers to the course of events as revealed in retrospect by Macnaghten,it does not prove they knew about the suicide soon after he had been pulled from the Thames,but it "suggests" he had early information on it.
Obviously he may just be attempting to cover his back from public or reader criticism here,like I believe Anderson was also doing in his autobiography,when he too said he had positive knowledge of who the Ripper was.
Its pretty obvious neither had any such knowledge of who the Ripper was----two different Police Chiefs offering us up two entirely different prime suspects?Get off!

Best wishes
Norma

[Jeff Leahy]

Stewart and Andy

Many thanks for this information. The whole Farquharson debate and the placing of Druitt in the East end does seem to have generated interesting discussion on when Druit's name was first raised in connection to the Ripper crimes.

I cant help agreeing with Keith Skinner, however, much as it is agreed that McCormick is an unreliable source, it is almost impossible to determine what is truth, rumour or invention without seeing or knowing Mc Cormicks original source. (even if you do have the 'original' when he was working from second hand sources or news paper stories...)

However it often amused me why the CIA would employ 'remote viewers' to look for missiles in Siberia, when it was known that they had no greater percentage odds than you or I of finding one? The reasoning (from my source) was that, Even if their information was random and incorrect. Focusing the search on a specific area gave greater chance of detection than not having anywhere to look, so they generate greater success than people looking using other methods.

So even if McCormick is totally wrong if researchers are looking in specific areas because of debate you guys have generated...then something, either way, might possibly turn up...I think there's a logic to that? (Be mindful but keep looking? )

Sorry Andy I still don't buy the whole Druit as JtR thing...are you certain he could have murdered Chapman and caught a train back to Blackheath in time to play cricket?...I'm not sure.. I very much enjoyed your pod cast however...

Fascinating stuff as always

Many thanks Jeff

[Stewart P Evans]

Weakest

Stewart, I'll give up after this, I promise. I think you are missing my point. It doesn't require a police "theory." It only requires one police official making one statement to Bachert, which the latter may or may not have believed.

We are all at our weakest when pushing theories and speculation without evidential support.

[aspallek]

Stewart, I'll give up after this, I promise. I think you are missing my point. It doesn't require a police "theory." It only requires one police official making one statement to Bachert, which the latter may or may not have believed.

[Stewart P Evans]

Extant

I've just had a reader of this forum accuse me of "clinging tenaciously" to the Bachert story and I fear Stewart has written me off as a kook. Really, I'm not clinging to the story.
Look, all I'm saying is this. All it takes is one senior police official to make such a statement to Bachert in early 1889 to establish that Druitt was under suspicion very shortly after his death. It doesn't matter whether Bachert believed what he was told. It doesn't matter whether or when he may have said anything about it to anyone about it. It doesn't even matter whether any other police officials believed it. Most commentators get caught up in these irrelevant details. Despite the fact that McCormick was prone to inventing "facts" it is certainly well within the realm of possibility that a police official could have made such a statement to Bachert. Therefore, we should not automatically assume this is a fabrication even though there is no independent evidence of it.
What I am trying to do is establish when police first knew of Druitt as a suspect. The identification of Farquharson as the West of England MP removes any reasonable doubt that Druitt was the "son of a surgeon" in question. That dates police knowledge of Druitt as a suspect from early 1891, three years before the Macnaghten memorandum. If a police official did say this to Bachert, the date gets moved up another two years. "If...."

'Kook', no, you are a thoroughly nice guy Andy...

However, from the extant official reports of 1889, and after, there can be no doubt that such a theory was not entertained at that time.

[aspallek]

I've just had a reader of this forum accuse me of "clinging tenaciously" to the Bachert story and I fear Stewart has written me off as a kook. Really, I'm not clinging to the story.

Look, all I'm saying is this. All it takes is one senior police official to make such a statement to Bachert in early 1889 to establish that Druitt was under suspicion very shortly after his death. It doesn't matter whether Bachert believed what he was told. It doesn't matter whether or when he may have said anything about it to anyone about it. It doesn't even matter whether any other police officials believed it. Most commentators get caught up in these irrelevant details. Despite the fact that McCormick was prone to inventing "facts" it is certainly well within the realm of possibility that a police official could have made such a statement to Bachert. Therefore, we should not automatically assume this is a fabrication even though there is no independent evidence of it.

What I am trying to do is establish when police first knew of Druitt as a suspect. The identification of Farquharson as the West of England MP removes any reasonable doubt that Druitt was the "son of a surgeon" in question. That dates police knowledge of Druitt as a suspect from early 1891, three years before the Macnaghten memorandum. If a police official did say this to Bachert, the date gets moved up another two years. "If...."

[aspallek]

Well, since Farquharson had planned to stand for election from Bethnal Green something must have stirred his interest in the East End. I still wonder whether that was purely an intended political move or whether there was some genuine interest in the East End on Farquharson's part.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Andy,
Yes Cook knew Druitt from his days at Winchester.In England children began public school at preparatory age as a rule-they still do at such private institutions as Winchester.Preparatory age begins at eight years.However I seem to remember Druitt got a scholarship to Winchester.He probably got it from Winchester"s Preparatory school but he may have come from another Preparatory school in which case he would have started at Winchester at eleven years.Either way he was a child of exactly the same age and year group as Cook ,when they first met at Winchester.They then went to New College Oxford at the same time and got their degrees in the same month,and year .
I found their similar subject interests regarding the debates held at Winchester and Oxford,quite interesting too.And Cook"s very strong link with both Blackheath and Commercial Street in the East End as well as the Inner Temple meetings held in the early eighties with Arnold Toynbee seem to provide the potential network for Oxford and Cambridge graduates to gossip and probably speculate about Druitt"s suicide .
I hadnt realised Andy,that Farquharson was the same age as Druitt----well in the same year group at University.So if he went to Cambridge he was a contemporary of Arthur Dyke Acland, The Duke of Clarence and a few others whose names have been linked for various reasons to the Druitt story.Both Arthur Dyke Acland and the Duke of Clarence gave support to Toynbee Hall"s first Annual Meeting in 1885,speaking about the previous years achievements since 1884 when it was opened.I didnt see Farquharson"s name among them but that neednt mean anything.There were large numbers of students who visited Toynbee at the time and Farquharson could have been among them.
Best
Norma

[Johnr]

Thank you Stewart for that newspaper reference.Very important.
Iforgot too, to add my praise to the useful discovery by Chris of Montague Druitt's donation to the People's Palace fund.
This too, will add to a tiny but growing store of interesting facts linking MJD to the murders. JOHN RUFFELS.

[aspallek]

I seem to recall that we did establish that there was no close links between Thomas Druitt and Monty's Druitts. Maybe a distant relationship. But I think it probable on the basis of the information we are finding that Montague did know the East End and was not just familiar with the green turf of playing fields, classrooms, and chill judicial chambers.

Chris

I seem to have had a brain cramp. Jabez's father was named Thomas Druitt. However, by the 1880's he probably would have been dead.

[aspallek]

There seems to be a bit of a triangle emerging here that may be coincidence or maybe not. Norma, you said that Cook knew Druitt from childhood. Do we know that for certain or is that an assumption? You suggestion that Cook may have been the source of information on Druitt is interesting.

Here is the triangle:

Druitt born 1857 at Wimborne, Dorset, attends Winchester and Oxford, settles in Blackheath. Seems to have had at least passing interest in East End social reform.

Cook born 1857 at Brighton, attends Winchester and Oxford at the same time as Druitt, lives in Blackheath at the same time as Druitt, a short distance from Druitt's residence. Has great interest in East End social reform.

HR Farquharson born 1857 at Brighton, attends Eton and Cambridge, settles in Dorset, ten miles from Wimborne. As MP for Dorset West, identifies JtR in 1891 as 'the son of a surgeon' who committed suicide after the last murder. Had planned to run for Parliament from Bethnal Green but his unexpected death in 1895 prevented this.