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The Strange Death Of Montague John Druitt

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  • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

    what i was actually meaning was the whole conspiracy theory angle 'MM was deliberately misled by fellow senior officers at SY', 'I wonder if misleading MM into believing MJD was the murderer was an extension of a cover up to protect JTR'. sorry but this is just ridiculous.
    As others will tell you Wulf I’m possibly the poster least likely to go for cover-ups and conspiracies. That’s said, people do lie. A family might lie for example to protect one of their own. That in itself would be a cover-up. There are certainly strange aspects about Druitt’s death. We can only speculate of course. I don’t see an issue if individuals want to discuss them though?
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes



    “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

    “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      I suppose you prefer threads like did the Ripper use a ligature just to promote your Bury obsession Wulf? Why do people get so hysterical at the mention of Druitt? He was mentioned by a very senior police officer. I know that it’s inconvenient to you but Bury was interviewed at the time and exonerated. So it’s quite reasonable to assume that they had good reason to exonerate him given that they were utterly desperate to apprehend the killer. You may not believe Druitt is a valid suspect Wulf (and you wouldn’t be alone) but he’s worthy of discussion for many. If you’re not interested then don’t take part but you appear to wish to turn these threads into a Bury only zone. What I would say is that i personally believe Druitt to be the best of the named suspects. Yes better than Bury. That is my opinion. And I have to say that I wouldn’t dream of claiming ‘case closed’ as you appear to want to over Bury. Of all the suspects Bury seems to attract a kind of exaggerated and unwarranted certainty.
      Hi Herlock,

      I see both Bury and Druitt as viable suspects.

      This "It Was Bury For Sure!!!" thing seems to be quite a recent phenomenon (or perhaps I've just not been around long enough to gauge it!).

      TBH I have quite enjoyed seeing Bury get a relatively rare run out on these boards lately, but I regard Druitt as perfectly worthy of discussion too.

      I'm not sure why there's always such a reaction to mention of Druitt, but it strikes me as similar in nature to the anti-Lech (also viable in my book) posts over on Christer's threads.

      It's great that arguments for and against a whole host of suspects are presented on these boards.

      It leads to interesting discussions and occasionally throws light (for me anyway) on aspects of the case which I had not previously considered.

      The arguments against named suspects have not yet caused me to completely discount any of the more credible ones though.

      In a world of weak suspects, those with some kind of supporting evidence, who cannot be categorically eliminated, remain in the game for me.

      It's a bit wishy-washy and not terribly discriminating I know, but it's how I choose to roll!!!















      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

        Hi Herlock,

        I see both Bury and Druitt as viable suspects.

        This "It Was Bury For Sure!!!" thing seems to be quite a recent phenomenon (or perhaps I've just not been around long enough to gauge it!).

        TBH I have quite enjoyed seeing Bury get a relatively rare run out on these boards lately, but I regard Druitt as perfectly worthy of discussion too.

        I'm not sure why there's always such a reaction to mention of Druitt, but it strikes me as similar in nature to the anti-Lech (also viable in my book) posts over on Christer's threads.

        It's great that arguments for and against a whole host of suspects are presented on these boards.

        It leads to interesting discussions and occasionally throws light (for me anyway) on aspects of the case which I had not previously considered.

        The arguments against named suspects have not yet caused me to completely discount any of the more credible ones though.

        In a world of weak suspects, those with some kind of supporting evidence, who cannot be categorically eliminated, remain in the game for me.

        It's a bit wishy-washy and not terribly discriminating I know, but it's how I choose to roll!!!


        Hi Ms D,

        There’s nothing wrong with a measure of caution. There’s not enough of it around IMO. We just don’t know. And even the least likely of suspects can’t be categorically dismissed with evidence so they can be kept afloat by some. I’ve certainly no problem with anyone thinking Bury a good suspect.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes



        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

        “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

        Comment


        • I on balance believe Bury to have been the Ripper. However it is not a done deal. But I also think Druitt is one of the better Ripper suspects. Eg. Suspected at the time, committed suicide shortly after the murder of Mary Jane Kelly.

          Comment


          • Hi Herlock,

            I'm hoping that you may be able to remedy my abyssmal ignorance of the rail system in London. I tried modern rail maps with no joy. I have read that Monty held a season rail ticket. Was that ticket from Blackheath to Temple? He also bought a return train ticket on Dec 1st but only used the Charing Cross to Hammersmith part. Why Charing Cross rather than a station closer to his office? Is there any theory as to why he went to Hammersmith, other than to possibly jump off the bridge? If it were the latter, wouldn't it have been easier to select a bridge or wharf near his office or home? Thanks for any help you can offer.

            Cheers, George
            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
              Hi Herlock,

              I'm hoping that you may be able to remedy my abyssmal ignorance of the rail system in London. I tried modern rail maps with no joy. I have read that Monty held a season rail ticket. Was that ticket from Blackheath to Temple? He also bought a return train ticket on Dec 1st but only used the Charing Cross to Hammersmith part. Why Charing Cross rather than a station closer to his office? Is there any theory as to why he went to Hammersmith, other than to possibly jump off the bridge? If it were the latter, wouldn't it have been easier to select a bridge or wharf near his office or home? Thanks for any help you can offer.

              Cheers, George
              Hi George,

              Im not from London either George so I’m no expert on the rail system. We know nothing for certain about why Druitt took the journey that he did but one suggestion is that might have been to the Manor House Asylum at nearby Chiswick run by the Tukes. Druitt was friends from University with Thomas Seymour Tuke. In 1890 Druitt’s mother was committed to that asylum. It’s speculation of course but he might have been seeking some kind of help there?

              Intriguingly (IMO) in an article by David Barrat issue 165 of Ripperologist he published a list of missing files from the Home Office records which included this…

              131 DESTROYED Letter from Mr. H.S. Tuke offering suggestions re. East End murders 24.11.88 HO 46/93, p.482

              This is a post by David Anderson who wrote an excellent book on Druitt as a suspect.

              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...nounced-druitt

              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes



              “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

              “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

              Comment


              • Hi Sherlock,

                Thanks for that information and the link. So Monty knew Thomas Tuke from University. H.S. Tuke was a painter - did he have an involvement with the asylum?

                You said earlier that Monty was last seen on the 3rd December based on the statement on the 11th that he hadn't been seen in chambers for over a week, which leaves some margin for interpretation. Is it likely that after his trip to Hammersmith on the 1st December, with the unused return ticket, he would have been back at chambers after that? Is known how his date of death of 4th December was derived, and by whom? It seems to me that his last known whereabouts was at Hammersmith Station, and after that is a matter of supposition?

                Cheers, George
                “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                Comment


                • Henry Scott Tuke - Wikipedia
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • George Savage (physician) - Wikipedia
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                    Comment


                    • Virginia Woolf - Wikipedia

                      Vita Sackville-West - Wikipedia
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                        Hi Sherlock,

                        Thanks for that information and the link. So Monty knew Thomas Tuke from University. H.S. Tuke was a painter - did he have an involvement with the asylum?

                        You said earlier that Monty was last seen on the 3rd December based on the statement on the 11th that he hadn't been seen in chambers for over a week, which leaves some margin for interpretation. Is it likely that after his trip to Hammersmith on the 1st December, with the unused return ticket, he would have been back at chambers after that? Is known how his date of death of 4th December was derived, and by whom? It seems to me that his last known whereabouts was at Hammersmith Station, and after that is a matter of supposition?

                        Cheers, George
                        As far as I can recall George his only connect to the asylum was a family one. To be honest I don’t have any books with me at the moment to refresh my memory but you’re right that the actually day of his suicide can’t be stated with certainty. As Monty was sacked from the school on November 30th we don’t know if he was allowed a period of time to find somewhere else to live or whether he was told to leave immediately? So was he still at the school or living elsewhere? Was he staying at the asylum or perhaps at Kings Bench Walk? If his friends say that they hadn’t seen him since the 3rd and that this caused them concern it could of course be that Monty called in every day or most days to see if there was any work for him? We don’t know.

                        A couple of things are interesting (to me at least) The friend that contacted Monty’s brother William to tell him that he was missing was never mentioned by name. Even at the Inquest no one mentions his name. I’m certainly not attempting to read too much into this but it’s just curious that he was never actually named. The other point is that only part of Druitt’s suicide note is ever read out or published. This of course might simply have been for reasons of family privacy but omissions can’t but help leave us wondering what the rest of the note contained? I might also mention that his brother claimed that, apart from him, Monty had no other relatives, which wasn’t even close to being true. Possibly he was trying to shield other family members but he’d already admitted at the Inquest that his mother was confined.
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes



                        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                        “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                        Comment


                        • "In 1882 he married Adelaide Sutton, the daughter of another doctor".

                          Henry??

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            As far as I can recall George his only connect to the asylum was a family one. To be honest I don’t have any books with me at the moment to refresh my memory but you’re right that the actually day of his suicide can’t be stated with certainty. As Monty was sacked from the school on November 30th we don’t know if he was allowed a period of time to find somewhere else to live or whether he was told to leave immediately? So was he still at the school or living elsewhere? Was he staying at the asylum or perhaps at Kings Bench Walk? If his friends say that they hadn’t seen him since the 3rd and that this caused them concern it could of course be that Monty called in every day or most days to see if there was any work for him? We don’t know.

                            A couple of things are interesting (to me at least) The friend that contacted Monty’s brother William to tell him that he was missing was never mentioned by name. Even at the Inquest no one mentions his name. I’m certainly not attempting to read too much into this but it’s just curious that he was never actually named. The other point is that only part of Druitt’s suicide note is ever read out or published. This of course might simply have been for reasons of family privacy but omissions can’t but help leave us wondering what the rest of the note contained? I might also mention that his brother claimed that, apart from him, Monty had no other relatives, which wasn’t even close to being true. Possibly he was trying to shield other family members but he’d already admitted at the Inquest that his mother was confined.
                            The argument for Druitt as the Ripper is one of the most frustrating and infuriating (but also intriguing) in this whole case IMO.

                            It feels like there are so many pieces of evidence which could shed light on the case, but they're just out of reach.

                            Why was Druitt fired from Valentine's school?
                            What were the full contents of the suicide note?
                            Did Druitt ever volunteer in Whitechapel (Toynbee Hall or similar)?
                            What was M's "Private Information"?
                            Is there a link to the Tukes asylum in Chiswick?
                            What on earth is in that letter from Tuke to the police?
                            Why buy a return ticket when commiting suicide?
                            Why did William lie in stating there were no other family members?

                            Etc etc etc etc... .

                            The answers to many of these questions may actually be of no consequence, but some may be really significant.


                            ​​​​​​​

                            Comment


                            • "Fall guy is a colloquial phrase that refers to a person to whom blame is deliberately and falsely attributed in order to deflect blame from another party."

                              Wikipedia.
                              Last edited by mpriestnall; 09-19-2021, 10:08 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
                                "Fall guy is a colloquial phrase that refers to a person to whom blame is deliberately and falsely attributed in order to deflect blame from another party."

                                Wikipedia.
                                It's certainly a possibility that I wouldn't rule out, Martyn!

                                Comment

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