Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[RivkahChaya]

Hi Caz.

Yes I think the 'gay' aspect has been seriously overplayed, both Andy and Jonathan promoted the right idea, "sexually insane" in Druitt's case meant "over sexed" which he may have been, and sometimes unable to perform. Sutcliffe also had problems in this area.

All the best, Jon S.

A gay person in Druitt's position would have had to be very discreet. He'd be no Oscar Wilde-- someone people might have described as "sexually insane" not just for his homosexuality, but for his 100 years ahead of its time "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it" attitude. If Druitt had behaved like that, he wouldn't have lasted a day in his job. In fact, if he'd been straight, but had told a classroom full of boys that Wilde's behavior was just fine, he would have been fired.

Maybe he was what we would call a "sex addict" now. Since pretty much everyone he worked with was probably guilty of fornication, the point at which it became "insanity" was a matter of degree. He may have finally, in the judgment of enough people, have reached it when he got fired. Or maybe he was discussing his exploits with his underage charges. Or maybe he got caught masturbating in a less-than-private area, which is something sex addicts have been known to do, because they (men, anyway) get erections at really bad times. Or so I've been told.

[Wickerman]

I would only have a problem if he turned out to be gay, because I don't know of any gay male serial killers who committed this type of murder and mutilation only on females. It might be different if he was bi-sexual, but unless new information comes our way we can only guess.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz.

Yes I think the 'gay' aspect has been seriously overplayed, both Andy and Jonathan promoted the right idea, "sexually insane" in Druitt's case meant "over sexed" which he may have been, and sometimes unable to perform. Sutcliffe also had problems in this area.

All the best, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

Victorians in general tend to look effete to modern people, particularly since they turned out in their best clothes for photographs, and were often photographed holding books, or with head-in-hand poses, because it helped them keep steady.

If you look at very early movies, particularly silent movies, set during Victorian times, when the people who made them actually remembered those times, men who are supposed to be very masculine are a bit fey by 21st century standards.

Compare Henry B. Walthall in The Birth of a Nation, or Bela Lugosi on the 1931 Dracula with modern sexy ideals. What goes around comes around. I know young women who can't imagine how anyone ever thought long hair was attractive on men-- meaning very long hair, like in the 1960s and 70s, and there will come a time when people won't be able to understand how the caveman look was ever attractive.

At any rate, as far as gay serial killers not killing women, I agree, unless they are terrorist-type killers, who kill both genders, and their sexuality is irrelevant, but that isn't JTR.

I have two comments about Druitt being bisexual: one is that serial killers are overwhelmingly straight men, disproportionate to the number of straight men in the population, so I would be surprised if JTR were anything other than a straight man. I'm not saying it couldn't be true, just that it is very unlikely, statistically.

The second is that if JTR, whether he was Druitt, or someone else, were bisexual, then maybe there were male victims as well. The police would be unlikely to associate male victims with the Whitechapel killer of women, and the murderer may have had a different hunting ground for men. Even if he targeted prostitutes when looking for male victims, I don't know that the East End was the place to go. Maybe it was-- I have no idea. Does anyone else know? What was the male prostitution demographic? in the modern era, it tends to be younger-- you can find plenty of 40-year-old women working as prostitutes, but not so many 40-year-old men (and some of the few are "escorts" who serve a female population, while others are transvestites, or other people working a particular fetish niche), but among teens, the numbers are about even, and they all service Johns.

In New York City, you see teens, boys and girls, working in the same places, but the drag queens work "specialty" areas, where people know to go looking for them. Men who serve women don't work the streets, they take out ads in the Voice, or now, probably mostly online.

[caz]

Hi Jon,

Yes, I don't think there is any evidence that Druitt's build would have been an obstacle, considering that none of the victims were in much of a physical condition to defend themselves, even if they were aware of what they were about to receive, which is doubtful.

I would only have a problem if he turned out to be gay, because I don't know of any gay male serial killers who committed this type of murder and mutilation only on females. It might be different if he was bi-sexual, but unless new information comes our way we can only guess.

Love,

Caz
X

[Wickerman]

There's been the usual observations about Druitt, across various threads, which amount to him being perceived by modern readers as weak, frail, effete. Even looking gay, certainly not the image of the masculine devil perceived to be necessary to be Jack the Ripper.


Detective Supt. Dick Holland, assigned to the Yorkshire Ripper inquiry was in the building minutes after an interesting suspect was brought into the interrogation room.

"I thought he looked a weedy wimp", said Holland, He was quietly spoken, almost effeminate in his speech and manner. He didn't give the impression in any way of being the overpowering evil man. You would have thought of him as an ideal neighbour, the sort of person you would meet on the way to church on a Sunday morning".

Dick Holland was looking at Peter Sutcliffe moments after he confessed to being the Yorkshire Ripper.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

summary

Hello All. Here is a summary from "The Times" of 29 November, 1888 regarding the case discussed above.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

A lot of serial killers who were caught and sentenced to death faced their death with whining cowardice, it's true, but those were the ones who were caught.

Its easy to associate the act of remorse subsequent to capture as a continuation of the killer's attempt to manipulate the authorities.
Sutcliffe is a good example of this, which included getting himself into the mental hospital at Broadmoor instead of the regular prison environment which he hated.

Once in the 'nick', its all about "small victories"...

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

Indeed. And some may never have existed.

Cheers.
LC

Well, yeah. But I was responding to something specific. "Regret" vs. "remorse," I guess you could sum it up.

[lynn cates]

no existential quantifier

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

"So killers who were never caught stopped for unknown reasons. Some may simply have died, and some may have been incarcerated for other things, but some may have committed suicide"

Indeed. And some may never have existed.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Well, there's guilt, then there's facing a life of being slave to a habit of killing people, and covering it up. People kill themselves rather than face a life of drug addiction, or try to go through detox and rehab. It might have stopped being fun, and started being a burden, and yet was still a compulsion.

That speculation, FWIW, applies to any Ripper, not just Druitt-if-he-was.

A lot of serial killers who were caught and sentenced to death faced their death with whining cowardice, it's true, but those were the ones who were caught. So killers who were never caught stopped for unknown reasons. Some may simply have died, and some may have been incarcerated for other things, but some may have committed suicide. Herb Baumeister committed suicide, because he felt the police were closing in on him, so sometimes they do end in suicide. I don't really know how close the police were to Baumeister, since the real, solid evidence came after he died, and some other things were going wrong in his life, like his business failing. Also, he had kept a pretty tight seal on his serial killer activities for a long time, then made some stupid errors, so maybe it was wearing on him.

[lynn cates]

Miller's Court

Hello Jon. Thanks. If there were remorse, then one might look for long term effects.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Yes Lynn, It seems reasonable to accept the sudden decision for suicide had nothing to do with the Millers Court affair. Remorse is not likely to be part of the killers make-up, whoever he was.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Druitt for the appellant

Hello All. Here is a link to one of M. J. Druitt's last cases. Not clear whether the date, 27 November, refers to the date of the trial or the date of the report.

(Although I believe the Rev Spallek gave details of this, here is a fuller report.)

One will notice that--if the date of trial is given--this is about 2 1/2 weeks after his "mind gave way due to the awful glut at Miller's Court.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0tI...carage&f=false

Trial begins on page 109 and terminates bottom of 112.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pressure

Hello Robert. Thanks. Completely agree. The pressure must have been great. (I can sympathise with one holding multiple positions.)

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Thanks Lynn. Valentine's school seems to have been one of the founding members of the Hockey Association of 1886, which drew up the rules of the game. Monty was probably putting a lot of time into his teaching duties (including the teaching of sport), plus his own sporting activities, and then there was his legal work. I should think that he couldn't just cruise along at this, taking cases when he felt like it, but would have to keep his name "in the frame" as it were. I cannot remember if his legal work was heavy or light in his final year, but given that one small oversight in a law court can mean loss of a case, I imagine the pressure was always on him. His mother's condition would have made things worse.