Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[lynn cates]

Farqy

Hello Roy. What if Farqy were the ONLY source of the private information about Druitt's family?

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

The Source

"from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer."

Who was his source? There is Druitt's circle, then Macnaghten's circle. What was the intersecction thereof? You could do a rating, 10. being Macnaghten sat down and talked to a Druitt family member. Then 9. 8. 7. so forth would have increasing degrees of separation.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Ben,

it evidently appealed to Macnaghten for that reason.

(Druitt's suicide at that time)

But Macnaghten said private information indicated Druitt's own family suspected him. That is a provocative statement.

I think its a given he felt he had an inside scoop on this. Family secrets. The compass points between Mac and the Druitts have been mapped out pretty well over the years.

Were the rumors worth a hoot?

Roy

[RivkahChaya]

The reality, of course, is that the real killer was more than likely to have been perfectly capable of stopping, or at least putting on hold his murderous desires for a considerable period of time. The notion that the killer must have died, been incarcerated or moved away is a very outdated one.

Well, sometimes they do move. Ted Bundy moved around a lot, and cross-jurisdictional sharing of information allowed him to kill several more women than he otherwise might have. And they certainly must die. Jack the Ripper, whoever he was, is dead now, although that is not necessarily the reason he stopped killing. But There's a fully documented case in the US of a rapist who caught HIV from his victim, and there have occasionally been victims (or rather, intended victims), who killed assailants, and in those cases, we don't know what previous victims they might have had. I have wondered how JTR managed not to nick himself with a filthy knife, and get gangrene, septicemia, or some skin-infection form of syphilis.

But he certainly could have simply stopped because he thought the heat was on. He might have intended to start again, but could have died two years later of something completely unrelated to being JTR.

Serial killers will stop on their own and more commonly stop for extended periods of time, even years, before doing it again. As you say, in the annals of serial murder, I do not beleive there has ever been a case of a killer committing suicide before being apprehended.

Herb Baumeister committed suicide when he believed that the police were on to him, and he would soon be arrested. The general consensus is that he couldn't take the public outing as a killer, homosexual, and not the church-going family man, business owner, pillar of the community, etc., he pretended to be, and I suppose to an extent was, in that he maintained two separate lives successfully for a long time, and it all came crashing down at once. His crimes and proclivities were a lot like John Wayne Gacy's, but Gacy's downfall was slow and in pieces, with divorce, and arrests on lesser charges, and short prison terms. There was never an inkling that anything was up with Baumeister until he came under suspicion for killing several young men.

He's the only example I can think of. That doesn't mean there haven't been others, but there doesn't seem to be a pattern.

In general, serial killers who receive the death penalty protest, ask for mercy, and go sniveling to the death chamber. I'm against the death penalty, and I'm not saying they deserve it; it's just worth noting how they behave when faced with it as compared to, for example, Timothy McVeigh, who was quite stoic, or several people who have been executed in the last few years for murdering police officers.

It's odd that people who kill other people for pleasure are so attached to their own lives. I'm not saying that what Timothy McVeigh, or cop-killers have done isn't horrible, but they didn't look their victims in they eye, or get close enough to touch them.

[Abby Normal]

Absolutely, Rivkah, and it evidently appealed to Macnaghten for that reason. Unfortunately for any modern-day "Druittist", there is absolutely no reason to suppose that the ripper series ended in the offender's suicide. There is no historical precedent for such behaviour, and I know of no other serial case that terminated in the killer's suicide before he had a chance to be apprehended and identified. The reality, of course, is that the real killer was more than likely to have been perfectly capable of stopping, or at least putting on hold his murderous desires for a considerable period of time. The notion that the killer must have died, been incarcerated or moved away is a very outdated one.

All the best,
Ben

Absolutely and Amen.
Serial killers will stop on their own and more commonly stop for extended periods of time, even years, before doing it again. As you say, in the annals of serial murder, I do not beleive there has ever been a case of a killer committing suicide before being apprehended.

[Ben]

I completely agree; it's just that "Druitt committed suicide, and therefore, the murders stopped," is such a handy explanation

Absolutely, Rivkah, and it evidently appealed to Macnaghten for that reason. Unfortunately for any modern-day "Druittist", there is absolutely no reason to suppose that the ripper series ended in the offender's suicide. There is no historical precedent for such behaviour, and I know of no other serial case that terminated in the killer's suicide before he had a chance to be apprehended and identified. The reality, of course, is that the real killer was more than likely to have been perfectly capable of stopping, or at least putting on hold his murderous desires for a considerable period of time. The notion that the killer must have died, been incarcerated or moved away is a very outdated one.

All the best,
Ben

[Bridewell]

Tumblety is still too much of a long shot for me, charlatan, poser, wanna-be?, absolutely, viscous murderer?, I don't think so.

Perhaps not a viscous murderer, but certainly an oily character!

[lynn cates]

long shot

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Thinking alike? You should be worried. (heh-heh)

Actually, all the named suspects for "Jack" are a bit of a long shot--in my opinion.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"There really are only two suspects, Druitt and Kosminski. All the others require leaps of faith of varying degree's."

Staying with this line of reasoning, would not Tumblety also be a suspect?

Cheers.
LC

Funny you should pick up on that Lynn. I had wrote "and the best of the rest might be Tumblety", but then I erased it.
I included him initially only because of Littlechilds letter.

Tumblety is still too much of a long shot for me, charlatan, poser, wanna-be?, absolutely, viscous murderer?, I don't think so.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Tumblety

Hello Jon.

"There really are only two suspects, Druitt and Kosminski. All the others require leaps of faith of varying degree's."

Staying with this line of reasoning, would not Tumblety also be a suspect?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Then, there is the third suspect, who I personally think is most likely, and that's "The person no one has thought of yet."

Oh for sure, "The man with no name", always my preferred suspect. Some tend to regard this as a copout but the chances are pretty good that the real killer /or killers, is/were totally unknown.
On the other hand, I'm not altogether sure we haven't seen him (metaphorically speaking) in the background in any one of the five part drama's, a figure seen but unidentified.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

There really are only two suspects, Druitt and Kosminski. All the others require leaps of faith of varying degree's.

Well, I'd say, Druitt, "Kosminski," the quotes being there in case were aren't mistaking the Aaron Kosminski we've tracked down for someone else with a similar name, because Yiddish has a completely different spelling system, with no clear letter-letter correspondence, and a few people changed names entirely for various reasons, so Kaminsky/Kosminski mix-ups are plausible, as are mix-ups from Jews still learning English trying to write their own names. I can see the "s" sometimes getting dropped from Kosminski, and becoming Kominski, because one form of an s-sounding letter in Hebrew/Yiddish looks like an English/Roman "o." Then, someone reading it aloud could have caused someone else to write Kaminsky.

Then, there is the third suspect, who I personally think is most likely, and that's "The person no one has thought of yet."

Of those, I'd say Druitt is the least likely, and very much less likely.

Really, though, those are almost categories of suspects:

The "Druitts": people who died, disappeared, of moved an left no forwarding address shortly after the Kelly murder, were known to be within easy distance of Whitechapel in general in 1888, and can't be specifically ruled out, like by a letter from Druitt's aunt detailing the family vacation in Scotland the whole two days covering both ends of the "double event," and saying Montie never left her side.

The Jew: enough people described "Jewish-appearing" people with the victims, and there were a lot of Jews in the area, that, along with the one witness the police somehow seemed to regard as reliable (whether he actually saw the killer or not, they seem to believe he could identify the person he saw with the victim with certainty), it's worth considering that JTR was Jewish. If the Lusk kidney and letter are authentic, though, then JTR wasn't a new immigrant.

The one no one has thought of yet: this is who I consider the most likely.

[Wickerman]

I completely agree; it's just that "Druitt committed suicide, and therefore, the murders stopped," is such a handy explanation, and saves us looking over pretty much the rest of the world to figure out where JTR disappeared to, pardon the odd expression. Until someone either finds a really good "Here's what he did after Miller's Court" story, or a really, really good suspect who was convicted of bank robbery, and given 25 years, or something, Druitt will stay on the short list, I'm afraid.

Absolutely, and that is the reality of the situation.

We are in no position to judge whether Druitt is a good or bad suspect because we do not know why he was suspected in the first place.

We have had him handed to us on a platter, therefore we must deal with it as a fact. The only role modern researchers can play now is to find some conflict of dates or times to show he "couldn't" have committed one or more of the series, after a good half century no-one has unearthed anything to rule him out.

There really are only two suspects, Druitt and Kosminski. All the others require leaps of faith of varying degree's.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

Additionally, if no reliable eyewitness described the presumed ripper as looking "Jewish", what does it matter if Druitt had a "semitic cast of countenance" (which he obviously didn't)? It is arguable that Lawende's sighting was taken most seriously of all by the contemporary police, and the fact that the suspect in question was described by Lawende as "rather rough and shabby" is a probable indicator that the ripper was precisely that, at least in outward and visible terms.

I know this is a "Druitt" thread, but that actually answers a good question about the Seaside Home suspect. It may be that the police had a very convincing identification of the suspect in the home as the person seen by the witness, but so many conflicting reports of different men seen with victims, that whatever the police may have believed about this particular witness being more truthful, or less biased, or something, they realized it would never stand up in court.

Druitt is a very poor suspect, criminologically speaking, which is why his adherents are best advised to stick with the "maybe Monty had something after all?" if they wish to fight his corner today.

I completely agree; it's just that "Druitt committed suicide, and therefore, the murders stopped," is such a handy explanation, and saves us looking over pretty much the rest of the world to figure out where JTR disappeared to, pardon the odd expression. Until someone either finds a really good "Here's what he did after Miller's Court" story, or a really, really good suspect who was convicted of bank robbery, and given 25 years, or something, Druitt will stay on the short list, I'm afraid.

[Ben]

I think the discussion over Druitt's physical appearance tends to overlook his obvious incompatibility with the reliable eyewitness evidence. Yes, Smith and Marshall described "clerkly" looking men, but they were clearly not descriptions of the real killer of Stride, who evidently arrived on the scene later in the form of Schwartz's broad-shouldered full-faced man...who looked nothing like Druitt. Additionally, if no reliable eyewitness described the presumed ripper as looking "Jewish", what does it matter if Druitt had a "semitic cast of countenance" (which he obviously didn't)? It is arguable that Lawende's sighting was taken most seriously of all by the contemporary police, and the fact that the suspect in question was described by Lawende as "rather rough and shabby" is a probable indicator that the ripper was precisely that, at least in outward and visible terms.

Could this man be Druitt the well-dressed upper middle class outsider pretending to be a shabby local, or was it really a shabby local? Well, I'd know where I'd be putting my money, especially considering that the vast majority of serial killers come from working class backgrounds, and that the vast majority of serial murders discovered within walking distance of each other are committed by a locally based offender. And yet astonishingly, there are those who would accord this "equal" probability to the outsider/commuter theory, essentially forsaking decades of insight into serial killer behaviour, as well as expect opinion. They also forget the fact that "commuter" serialists (i.e killers who keep commuting into the same tiny, easily walkable region) are as rare as rocking horse sh!t when compared to their marauder counterparts.

Druitt is a very poor suspect, criminologically speaking, which is why his adherents are best advised to stick with the "maybe Monty had something after all?" if they wish to fight his corner today. Unfortunately, this too is questionable, given the sheer unlikelihood of Macnaghten suppressing crucial, incriminating evidence from investigators who worked the case in 1888, such as Frederick Abberline, who saw nothing incriminating in the "case" against him beyond the timing of his suicide.

Whenever Druitt crops up on the record between 3rd August and 1st September, he can only be placed in Dorset, a time period which meshes up extremely well with a standard public school holiday. The parsimonious explanation, surely, is that he can be placed in that county and nowhere else because that was where he was spending his time off school? Unless, of course, some especially pressing legal matters sent him to London, but we've no evidence for that.

All the best,
Ben