Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[Mayerling]

To Mayerling

I know what you mean.

How about if the cheques survived and the train pass, then a confession to his brother too which had lain at the bottom of the Thames.

They found the document marked for his brother William, did not open it (?) and sent a telegram. Handed it to him and he learned, posthumously, that his brother was [claiming to be] Jack.

Hi Jonathan,

Yeah, you got my feeling exactly. Without that kind of evidence, all you have is a floating corpse of a suicide. But if the police read the letter and it mentioned some fact that only the Ripper and the police knew, that would be another story. It had to be something like that.

Which is one of the reasons I wish the actual transcript of the coroner's inquest (rather than the reports of "basics") is needed. It would give more detailed information of the retrieval of Montie's corpse and the search of his remains.

Jeff

[RivkahChaya]

I've always been surprised that Whitchurch could justify a full-time resident vicar, even going back as far as 1888.

If you build it, they will come.

[Robert]

It sounds like the kind of name Flanders and Swann would have mentioned on their slow train song.

Apparently Georgi Markov is buried there so do not take an umbrella when visiting, even if it's raining.

[Cogidubnus]

Whitchurch Canonicorum

I've always been surprised that Whitchurch could justify a full-time resident vicar, even going back as far as 1888.

My first wife and I, back in the late 1970s/early 80s were regular travellers between our (Brighton) home and the West Country, and had long been intrigued by many of the direction signs we'd seen whilst travelling that way. Whitchurch Canonicorum, in particular, fascinated us, and I recall the day we succumbed to temptation and dived off the A35 to investigate...

Frankly, as I recall it, there were some odd posh cottages spread along a road, and a few more substantial houses near a bend in the road...perhaps some evidence of some more behind these, and...nothing else...

I've checked it out since on google maps, and it still seems to look much as I recall it...

A kind of rural chuff-allery

All the best

Dave

[Jonathan H]

Yeah, we agree, that's why I wrote a (?), meaning this is, eh, not likely.

For start it does not even match what Mac wrote about the truth remaining at the bottom of the river.

I am the lone advocate of the theory that the North Vicar tale of 1899 is both real and about Druitt, and thus explains why members of his own family and class would be so convinced of his culpability.

[RivkahChaya]

They found the document marked for his brother William, did not open it (?) and sent a telegram. Handed it to him and he learned, posthumously, that his brother was [claiming to be] Jack.

How likely is it, that upon dragging a boy out of the Thames, and finding a note marked to the corpse's brother, the police would not open it?

There's a point at which the body has not been identified, and it has not been determined whether or not it was suicide or murder. I think the police would not put the note aside, on the change that the addressee is not the corpse, or the person who put the corpse in the water.

In the US, there's actually a law that postmarked mail may only be opened by the addressee (or, in some occasions, the addressee's spouse, and when the addressee is a minor, the parent), yet police can invoke "exigent circumstances" in opening mail they find on or near a dead body, particularly an unidentified one, when the mail could belong to the dead person, but they don't know for sure. (FWIW, unless there's actual fraud, or theft of some kind, it's going to be pretty hard to actually charge someone with this, so when your roommate accidentally opens something, and puts it down as soon as she realizes it isn't hers, you don't really have a case.)

Anyway, I think the police would have opened and read any mail they found on the corpse-- if for no other reason than document preservation. Opening it wet and drying it under controlled conditions is probably better than letting it dry closed.

[Jonathan H]

Here is a reprint of the Vicar's tale in a regional paper, on the other site from which I am Banned-for-Life.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....545#post194545

Interestingly the original detail, that the Vicar [apparently] called his mixture of fact and fiction 'The Whitechurch Murders' (eg. not Whitechapel) has fallen by the wayside.

Montague's cousin, Charles Druitt, was Vicar of a parish in Dorset called Whitchurch-Canonicorum in 1899. According to the Vicar his name will reveal the identity of the murderer. Of course that assertion might be fiction too.

At a stretch this could also refer to Montie's sister's brother-in-law who was a Vicar in Woostershire in 1899 (the sister's husband may have been the priest to whom if he confessed, if the Vicar is referring to Druitt -- and he may not be).

My theory is that 'The Daily Mail' reporter decided to nudge, even to punish the Vicar -- if it was Charles in the south-West and not the far North -- by changing the title from Whitechapel to Whitechurch.

[Jonathan H]

To Mayerling

I know what you mean.

How about if the cheques survived and the train pass, then a confession to his brother too which had lain at the bottom of the Thames.

They found the document marked for his brother William, did not open it (?) and sent a telegram. Handed it to him and he learned, posthumously, that his brother was [claiming to be] Jack.

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

From the electoral registers, and the place of birth of George's daughter, my guess is that George joined up very soon after the 1881 census, and retired around 1906-7.

The coincidences in this case never fail to amaze me. George's father, George senior, was a private tutor who had trouble with creditors in the early 1870s and died in 1877. Nevertheless, and in an echo of Valentine, in 1881 PC Moulson's widowed mother and two of his sisters were running a school at their place of residence in Hove with around ten students living in. Thus the body of Monty, a schoolmaster at a small private school, was dealt with by a policeman whose mother ran a small private school.

What's more, in 1891 the school was only a couple of streets away from the Police Convalescent Home!

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff

Chiswick is west London, Hackney east London.

I looked for George in 1881 and he seems not to have been in the police then (apprenticed to a grocer) so he would have joined up some time between then and 1888. After the Police Pensions Act of 1890, officers were entitled to a pension after 25 years' service. I don't know whether they could go on for longer, but they could take their pension after 25 years if they wanted. The 1911 census entry is just a snapshot - George could have taken the pension before 1911. His full police record would hopefully be available in the official archives.

As to where constables worked, I think they could apply for transfer to a different division but I imagine the bottom line would have been that they went where they were sent.

Hi Robert,

Thank you again. Given George had to be a Constable by 1888, his quarter century point would have to be 1913. Since he gets his pension in 1911, then he had to be working from at least 1886 to get his full quarter century in. Let us say then Moulton began roughly 1885-86, and he is then 22-23 years old. Was he at T Division from the start then?

Hope someone can find his full police record.

Thanks again.

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

Chiswick is west London, Hackney east London.

I looked for George in 1881 and he seems not to have been in the police then (apprenticed to a grocer) so he would have joined up some time between then and 1888. After the Police Pensions Act of 1890, officers were entitled to a pension after 25 years' service. I don't know whether they could go on for longer, but they could take their pension after 25 years if they wanted. The 1911 census entry is just a snapshot - George could have taken the pension before 1911. His full police record would hopefully be available in the official archives.

As to where constables worked, I think they could apply for transfer to a different division but I imagine the bottom line would have been that they went where they were sent.

[Mayerling]

How intriguing!

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike,

It does bother me. Maybe there was a written confession, for example, that got lost (and remained in the Thames) - or so, perhaps Sir Melville may have believed. It's just that he is pushing the answer was in the Thames at one point, and it is either Montie's body/persona, or something additional.

It is intriguing!

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Jeff, it stood for T Division of the Metropolitan Police. See the T in this map. Body brought ashore at arrow and the local police constable took charge of it.

[ATTACH]15152[/ATTACH]

(click) to see entire map of the Met Police Divisions then. courtesy Colin R (blue )

Hi Roy,

Thanks for the map attachment and the explanation of the pernicious letter "T" which I misread. I have nothing to add here as to the response from you except to point to my response to Robert and some little questions regarding the issue I have.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff

Just to say that I don't know whether Moulson did attain the rank of sergeant between 1901 and his retirement.

Re how common was it for policemen to go an entire career without promotion, Stewart will know.

Re Monty's inquest record, I don't think there's anything suspicious about its absence - it's not as though there's a nice bundle of inquest papers from which Monty's has been taken away.

Hi Robert,

I made a time line of sorts of Moulton.

Born 1863

December 1888 (age 25) - 216 T (which Roy was kind enough to explain as "T" Division, not "Thames River Police" as I thought). This is his moment of note as he is associated with recovery of Druitt's body.

1891 (no month listed) - (age 28) Constable now in West London).

1901 (again no month) - (age 38) Constable in Hackney

1911 (no month again) - (age 48) Becomes Police Pensioner

1928 (age 64-65) - Dies.

Is Hackney in East or West London?
Would Chiswick be considered East or West London?
Who determined where to place constables at Scotland Yard?
Would the Constable have any say in the matter in the 1890s or early 1900s?

As for the inquest papers, I would imagine that once MacNaughten had heard these serious rumors or allegations about Druitt, he would have wanted to lay his hands on whatever the police had on the matter, and keep it in a special file for quick reference. But again this is just guessing.

Jeff

[Robert]

Thanks Dave!