Druitt's movements around murder dates

[Ben]

Hi Andy,

They would not have entertained such suspicions, and would certainly not have shared them with others, if they knew Montague had been playing cricket in Dorset when Polly Nichols was murdered.

But if the family didn't know that, or the rumours didn't originate from the family itself but from somebody on behalf on the family, it wouldn't be remotely implausible for Mcnaghten's informant to have been oblivious to Druitt's movements over the crucial dates. We must also entertain the possibility that the "errors" in the memoranda weren't Macnaghten's at all, but his informant's. If the latter, he wasn't very well-informed at all.

[Mrs Hudson]

New Druitt Material

Folks, what do you think of the information about Druitt which appears in the new book Thr Ripper Code by Thomas Toughill? Impressive what?

[The Good Michael]

his athletic prowess is well documented. In particular, the game of "Fives" required great hand and arm strength.

Andy, I don't know that that is true, or at least by my standards of what constitutes great hand and arm strength. Fives is very much like handball, and the most important factors are hand-eye coordination, court movement, and technique. I think the same can be said of cricket (aside from court movement). Neither of these are 'strength' sports like rugby, rowing, or sprinting, or even boxing. If Druitt was a rower and a boxer, I might say he had great leg strength and back strength, and above average arm strength. Maybe he was, but I don't know that.

Cheers,

Mike

[aspallek]

This perhaps isn't the proper thread for this discussion but it does go toward responding to the above posts.

Caz is absolutely right in her assertion that Druitt's family would have to have good reason for confiding in someone as to their suspicions. They would not have entertained such suspicions, and would certainly not have shared them with others, if they knew Montague had been playing cricket in Dorset when Polly Nichols was murdered.

Now, I believe we must approach this from both ends. We must ask who the family would have confided their suspicions to. We must also ask who was Macnaghten's informant.

Who would the Druitts have confided in? They were a religious family. I think it likely they would have confided in their pastor. Who was pastor at Wimborne Minster when Druitt died? Well, an assistant was John Henry Lonsdale. He would be the perfect confidant since he almost certainly knew Druitt and his circle of London friends and so could make inquiries and he would have to be discreet due to pastor-parishioner confidentiality. Perhaps all he could say was that the suspect was "the son of a surgeon."

Now, who was Macnaghten's informant? It could be that Lonsdale informed him some years later. But where does that leave Farquharson and his tale? Somehow Farquharson got wind of the story at least as early as 1891. He could have learned it from Lonsdale's wife, Kitty, who was from Blandford -- six miles from Farquharson's home. Perhaps they had known one another socially.

Caz is right. We do have to explain Macnaghten's errors. Actually, the official version of the memorandum only contains the error that Druitt was "said to be a doctor." The errors about his age and profession appear only in the Aberconway version, which is usually presumed to be a draft. There are three possibilities to explain the errors:

1. Macnaghten was misinformed.
2. Macnaghten's memory failed him -- he was writing some years later.
3. Macnaghten intentionally introduced the error(s).

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

Whether that's the case or not, it hardly seems likely that family suspicions could have survived at all had the summer produced a wealth of Dorset-based activity necessitating Druitt's presence

Unless, of course, the informer was misinformed in the first place, and/or Macnagthen exaggerated the gravity of this "private information". Both seem reasonable suggestions, especially in light of Abberline's luke-warm reception to it.

By that logic, in a hundred years from now it would be argued that I most likely spent all my time in the East End because I could be placed in a certain pub or curry house there on the first Saturday of every other month.

But if I could place you in the East End on 1st September 2007, and then again on 1st November 2007, and then several times in between those two dates, I'd be more than entitled to arrive at the most parsiminious assumption that you were there for the duration.

But just as obviously, if his mental health problems in 1888 did extend to a secret penchant for attacking East End unfortunates

Yes, but there's no evidence of that, any more than there's evidence that he kept trafficking back and forth between Dorset and the East End within the space of a month.

Cheers,
Ben

[caz]

Hi Dougie,

The point worth emphasising here is that Macnaghten did not claim to have received his private info directly from Monty’s family, but via another informant. Obviously Monty’s family and close associates would not have shared Macnaghten’s ‘mistaken belief that Druitt was a doctor’. They would have known his real age and what he did for a living for a start, and arguably a great deal more than Macnaghten ever learned about the man himself, his social life, sporting activities, inherited mental health problems and so on. So unless Macnaghten’s informant (or Macnaghten himself) was talking total rot about Druitt’s family believing him guilty of the ripper murders, the errors and gaps in Macnaghten’s knowledge about his suspect cannot take away from the fact that something must have ‘set him apart’ in the eyes of people far more qualified than Macnaghten to see it.

The question for Ben, Sam and others to address is therefore what set Druitt apart in his family’s eyes, assuming he had indeed managed to arouse their suspicions. It could still amount to precious little, but then again it might not. Given that they knew he was an assistant schoolmaster and lawyer, and not a doctor; that he played cricket in the summer and hockey in the winter, and that he divided his time between Central London, Blackheath and Dorset - then what was it about the man, or his behaviour in 1888, that could have made them believe he had journeyed to the dismal slums around Dorset Street, with the purpose of murdering and mutilating the desperate inhabitants he could expect to find there?

More importantly, in the context of this thread, would a worried friend or relative be likely to have confided their suspicions in anyone outside Monty’s immediate circle without trying to ascertain his movements around the murder dates? In fact, isn’t it entirely possible for a man with inherited mental health problems, who ended up getting himself sacked from a responsible post for some undisclosed ‘serious trouble’, to have been less than forthcoming with family, friends or colleagues about any unexpected absences, and that such behaviour could, by itself, have caused the suspicions in the first place? Whether that's the case or not, it hardly seems likely that family suspicions could have survived at all had the summer produced a wealth of Dorset-based activity necessitating Druitt's presence.

I just don’t see the logic in Ben’s argument that Monty was most likely to have spent all the school summer holidays in Dorset because of the few times he can be placed on a cricket pitch there. By that logic, in a hundred years from now it would be argued that I most likely spent all my time in the East End because I could be placed in a certain pub or curry house there on the first Saturday of every other month. No researcher would be able to place me in the vast majority of other places I frequent between meetings of the WS1888. Obviously it doesn’t matter where Monty went or how long he stayed in any one place if he had no intention of murdering anyone while he was there. But just as obviously, if his mental health problems in 1888 did extend to a secret penchant for attacking East End unfortunates, there’s no ‘most likely’ about it: he did not spend the entire school holidays in the West Country, conspicuously scoffing clotted cream teas with his team mates and giving his relatives no room for concern.

It also makes no logical sense at all for anyone close to Monty to have voiced a belief that he was the ripper, unless he had indeed been conspicuously absent at certain times during the summer hols, and for long enough to have commuted from the Dorset countryside to Dog Poo Alley Spitalfields between confirmed sightings of him in more pleasant surroundings.

Love,

Caz
X

[dougie]

sam and ben,
mcnaughton used the phrase "said to be a doctor"..ok but isnt that rather a strange phrase to use? it can be taken to mean several things..i.e " i think he was a doctor"......"people thought he was a doctor" (which would beg the question ,first WHO thought he was, second why? ....because he posed as a doctor maybe at times?) now if mcnaughton thought druitt was a doctor ,then why did he not say exactly that?he didnt. it seems inconceivable that if mcnaughton received info from family friends etc he didnt know his true occupation. so either "said to be a doctor" means something else completely different from whats been assumed(i.e mcnaughtons,for want of a better word, ignorance).....or mcnaughton made the whole story up from start to finish. and if other sources suggest ,as they seen to ,that druitt was on a list of suspects ,possibly before mcnaughtons appearance, not to mention the "looking for him alive when he was found dead" quote, then there must be more to it.......
regards

[Sam Flynn]

what set druitt apart? something did ,and i dont believe bar room gossip is the total answer to that conundrum.

It can have been little else than something of that ilk. If Macnaghten had had any well-researched information he would have said outright that Druitt was a barrister/teacher. It's fairly obvious to me that if Macnaghten couldn't even get something as basic as Druitt's profession right, then his "private info" was in all probability based on little more than hearsay.

[Ben]

Hi Dougie,

what set druitt apart?

Could have been anything from the mistaken belief that Druitt was a doctor to the history of mental illness within his family.

[dougie]

Hi Dougie,It's just as likely to suggest that Macnaghten (or the police) never checked.Doubtful. Bear in mind that the only suspect of whom Macnaghten states his whereabouts were unknown was Ostrog - the fact that Ostrog was actually out of the country at the time, and that Macnaghten fails to note the fact, reveals the level of "research" underpinning the Macnaghten Memorandum left at least a little to be desired.

was ostrog a mcnaughton suspect? he implies that ostrog together with kos and monty were police suspects..not his originally, and to give mcnaughton his due it appears he had disregarded ostrog and kosminski anyhow,though he obviously didnt give his reasons why( come to that he didnt give his reasons(detailed) why he believed druitt was his man either but.....) but then again if the evidence was strong enough(in macnaughtons mind) why the need to research ostrog ,indeed how could he if,as he states ostrogs whereabouts were unknown? druitts whereabouts however were known ,in general anyhow,but living or working close to whitechapel wouldnt be enough of itself to put him at the top of the list(albeit macnaughtons list)........and if death at the appropriate time was a clue to macnaughton of the identity of the killer, then why stop at deaths by suicide? serial killers die of natural causes also...and im assuming there were many deaths from natural causes in the month(s) following the supposedly last murder. what set druitt apart? something did ,and i dont believe bar room gossip is the total answer to that conundrum.
regards

[aspallek]

Anna,

He's also the dead spit of the Duke of Clarence...

At one time I thought so but now that I have come to "know" both of them better I see far less resemblance.

[Graham]

Hi Andy, Something that occurred to me today,regarding Monty. I was looking at a picture of him today,the one at the desk,and he just doesn't look like he has the strength of body frame to hold the dead weight of Polly or Annie,who would have had to have been leant against his own body,then lowered?Just a thought.

Anna,

He's also the dead spit of the Duke of Clarence...

Graham

[aspallek]

Hello, Anna.

Although Druitt does look a bit on the frail side in the photos we have ca. 10 yrs prior to the murders, his athletic prowess is well documented. In particular, the game of "Fives" required great hand and arm strength.

[anna]

Hi Andy, Something that occurred to me today,regarding Monty. I was looking at a picture of him today,the one at the desk,and he just doesn't look like he has the strength of body frame to hold the dead weight of Polly or Annie,who would have had to have been leant against his own body,then lowered?Just a thought.

[aspallek]

I don't really think Macnaghten's identification of the C5 says anything about Druitt having an alibi or not. If anything, it might imply that he was aware of the fact that Druitt played cricket in Dorset the weekend before and after Tabram's murder and that he was unlikely to have been in London then. My feeling, though, is that MM's belief in the C5 is independent of his choice of suspects.

As to how much research went into these suspects, we don't really know. If we are to believe Sims, quite a bit of research went into narrowing the list down to 7 and then to 3. But I know people want to dismiss Sims out of hand. Yet, did he just make that up? Whatever research was done, it clearly missed the fact that Ostrog was incarcerated in France at the time of the murders. That's not so inexcusable, though, as police did not routinely share that information in his day. Whatever research was done had taken place some years -- at least three years -- before MM wrote his memo. Much of the details could have been forgotten.