Montague John Druitt : Whitechapel Murderer ?

[Natalie Severn]

By decontextualising my post above Jeff, you have deleted the heading letting people know where this information came from ie the edition of the year 2000 extract from "The Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary ".

[caz]

You do on occasions come up with some old Cod.

I hope this is a reference to Monty's condition when he was fished out of the Thames - and not another Kodminski voice I'm hearing.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jeff Leahy]

schizophrenia

This definition is from the above [B]


The main types of schizophrenia are


simple


hebephrenic

paranoid

catatonic

[and a condition exists called borderline schizophrenic ]

and by the way,get this right,I have NEVER argued that paranoid schizophrenia is a different illness.Read my posts again about the generic term of schizophrenia.

Only in its manifestation as hebephrenia is the onset of the disease usually at adolescence.

It is NOT TRUE a person suffering from paranoid schizophrenia----the type that people such as Robert Napper and Sutcliffe---[The Yorkshire Ripper] suffer from, are NOT A DANGER TO OTHERS! .Sutcliffe and Napper are given "anti psychotic" drugs to control their illness.These were not available in Kosminski"s day.

Kosminski"s COLNEY HATCH RECORDS

BEGIN

with the statement that

"HE WAS NOT A DANGER TO OTHERS"

I note that yet again you take no notice of this entry as if by totally ignoring it it will somehow "go away" and let you go on accusing an innocent man of being Jack the Ripper

It therefore follows, as night does day, that


WE CAN STATE WITH A LARGE DEGREE OF CERTAINTY HE WAS NOT JACK THE RIPPER!

Schizophrenics are not dangerous. Once taken from the environment and cut from external factors that caused that violence (drugs alcohol etc)

Aaron’s records are consistent with schizophrenia.

We cant state with any degree of ‘certainty’ that he was ‘NOT’ Jack the Ripper.

Anymore than we can state he ‘WAS’.

We can however State that; given what is known, it is a POSSIBILITY.

You do on occasions come up with some old Cod.

Pirate

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Stan, I also gave 3.

I just cannot consider him seriously as JtR because;

He just doesn't fit the descriptions!

All the best
Jukka

[Natalie Severn]

DEFINITION from the OXFORD CONCISE MEDICAL DICTIONARY 2000

schizophrenia

This definition is from the above [B]


The main types of schizophrenia are


simple


hebephrenic

paranoid

catatonic

[and a condition exists called borderline schizophrenic ]

and by the way,get this right,I have NEVER argued that paranoid schizophrenia is a different illness.Read my posts again about the generic term of schizophrenia.

Only in its manifestation as hebephrenia is the onset of the disease usually at adolescence.

It is NOT TRUE a person suffering from paranoid schizophrenia----the type that people such as Robert Napper and Sutcliffe---[The Yorkshire Ripper] suffer from, are NOT A DANGER TO OTHERS! .Sutcliffe and Napper are given "anti psychotic" drugs to control their illness.These were not available in Kosminski"s day.

Kosminski"s COLNEY HATCH RECORDS

BEGIN

with the statement that

"HE WAS NOT A DANGER TO OTHERS"

I note that yet again you take no notice of this entry as if by totally ignoring it it will somehow "go away" and let you go on accusing an innocent man of being Jack the Ripper

It therefore follows, as night does day, that


WE CAN STATE WITH A LARGE DEGREE OF CERTAINTY HE WAS NOT JACK THE RIPPER!

[Jeff Leahy]

Willi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

Onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood,[1] with around 0.4–0.6%[2][3] of the population affected.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/simplepsych/17.html

What age does it normally start?
Normally in peoples' late teens or early twenties. Although it has been known to start at other ages (older and younger!), this is more unlikely.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/family/schizintro.html

Onset by Age -- Three-quarters of persons with schizophrenia develop the disease between 16 and 25 years of age. -- Onset is uncommon after age 30, and rare after age 40.

Norma, someone has been telling you porkies, it can develop late in women, some believe because of estrogen. Aaron’s symptoms are fairly typical of schizophrenia; I don’t indent to argue this point any more. Tying to argue that Paranoid Schizophrenia is a different illness is ridiculous.

Firstly without detailed assessment of the individual it’s impossible for anyone to reach that conclusion. Secondly it’s now recognized that Schizophrenia probably covers four or five ‘syndromes’. So given what little is ‘KNOWN’ we can only state Aaron had schizophrenia we can’t be more specific. However this statement:

“He declares that he is guided ad his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, he says that he knows the movements of all man kind, he refuses food from others because he is told to do so, he refuses food from others because he is told to do so, and he eats from the gutter for the same reason. Jacob Cohen, 51 Carter lane, St Paul’s EC1 says he goes about the streets and picks up bits of bread out of the gutter and eats them, he drinks water from a tap and he refuses food from the hands of others. He took a knife and threatened the life of his sister. He is very dirty and will not be washed. He has not attempted any kind of work for years. Signed HK Houchin”,

Would seem to be someone describing someone suffering what you are calling Paranoid Schizophrenia.

As to your claims about violence you are making the same basic mistake that Martin Fido made.

Schizophrenia is unlikely to be the only cause-factor if someone suffering the illness becomes violent. Schizophrenics go through phases called ‘psychotic’ episodes. Once removed from these other factors-environments schizophrenics are unlikely to be dangerous. Eventually all schizophrenic’s reach a stage called burn out where we would expect them to be ‘cut off from reality’ and harmless anyway. It is this stage that typically occurs in the thirties and is usually completely unviolent and harmless stage.

We don’t know specifics about Aaron’s illness. It’s probable he suffered a form of schizophrenia. Given what is KNOWN it’s a POSSIBILITY that he could have committed the murders.

Given what little is known about Druitt it’s a POSSIBILITY that he also could have committed the murders.

All I have stated is that Aaron is a better match for what is KNOWN about post mortem mutilators or Lust killers.

That’s it.

Pirate

PS. Perhaps you could supply us all with one link that suggests the average age for schizophrenia, in men, is thirty years of age? I suggest that you wont be able to unless from Mr Deloxley’s website.

[Natalie Severn]

DANGEROUS TO OTHERS? NO. entry, Male patients Day Book

Jeff,
I really dont like to say this but what you are doing and have done is to deliberately twist the truth!

You have cited from Aaron Kosminski"s Colney Hatch Records [1891-1894] ,moreover you have cited all the Colney Hatch Records that we have left so far known

EXCEPT FOR

the most crucially important entry of all!!! which is that HE WAS NOT CONSIDERED DANGEROUS !

viz:in the longish checklist we have the following entry,sandwiched between the following:

subject to epilepsy? no
suicidal? no

DANGEROUS TO OTHERS NO

---then and now a most critically important entry at Colney Hatch-for the simple reason of his ward placement.Had Aaron Kosminski been a dangerous paranoid schizophrenic who had murdered five women at least they would have written that he was dangerous .

As a good example, David Cohen who Martin Fido wrote about,at Colney Hatch at around the same time was recorded as dangerous and violent.He had to be constantly restrained with straight jackets and put in a padded cell.In those days it was all that they had to control the illness which is very different nowadays.I believe "Your experts" are describing how people such as Peter Sutcliffe and Robert Napper,both murderers like Jack the Ripper, are likely to be behaving in a completely harmless way now they are incarcerated because they are drugged.Aaron was not drugged and was not violent.

Additionally,Aaron was in Colney Hatch and Leavesdon asylums for nearly thirty years and his hospital records describe him as mentally ill and deteriorating into incoherence from time to time but completely harmless.
but you manage to have emboldened your post with the word "violent" right in the middle on the one single occasion in thirty years when there was recorded some unruly behaviour on the part of Kosminski .
For crying out loud ,if all this chap did was to pick up a chair and threaten somebody that does not in any way remotely resemble the carnage , mayhem and murderous acts of Jack the Ripper,then you are truly away with the fairies ,just like the man who allegedly told us he was JtR, Robert Anderson.

By the way ,I suggest you double check your facts. 22 is not the age of onset of paranoid schizophrenic psychosis.The age of onset is much more usually around the age of 30. I have "consulted with experts" too,by the way.
Best
Norma

[Jonathan H]

Look, people, one of the problems with Druitt cricket matches and Kosminski's specific ailment is that it is -- in my opinion -- looking at the mystery from the wrong end of the telescope.

We can never go back to those matches, and we cannot get a fresh medical opinion of Aaron. But we can make a provisional judgment as to the reliability of Macnaghten and Anderson as sources; as people of their era and of the particular forces acting upon them about this topic. Of the values and limitations of the sources they have left behind.

Both believed they had identified the fiend -- they cannot both be right and may of course be both wrong [perhaps Littlechild was closer to the mark. At least his suspect was actually being investigated in 1888].

[Jeff Leahy]

PS. Another major problem I am having is finding experts to agree on whether or not Paranoid Schizophrenia is actually a different illness or just an expression of how severe that illness is?

So for present Aaron was a Schizophrenic seems as far as we are able to go

Jx

[Jeff Leahy]

Very little is known about Aaron’s mental condition. The term Schizophrenia wasn’t even termed until 1905. However it is possible for modern experts to hazard an estimated prognosis on what is understood by this illness and how the subject might have behaved. Given normal progression and standard on-set of illness.

Aaron’s age at 22 is fairly typical of the illness. It progresses in waves known as Psychotic episodes. Each attack lasting around 12-16 weeks. So it is quite possible Aaron went through a lasting period where he appeared to become very ill and then get better. This is fairly typical of the early stages of Schizophrenia, we would expect, if untreated, is for each attack to get progressively worse. So while Aaron may have been perceived as a jibbering wreck eating from the gutter in 1891 he may have been far more coherent in 1888. Indeed the known incident with the dog appears to suggest that he was at least capable of appearing in court at this time and had periods of being quite lucid.

On the afternoon of 4th February 1891 . Aaron is again taken by his brother and admitted by M Whitefeild. This time there would be No release.
Three days later, 7th February 1891, Aaron was discharged to the Middlesex County Lunatic Asylum Colney Hatch: Order: 11,190, Adm: 7th Feb 1891, Age:26, Civil State: Single, Occupation: Hairdresser, Religion: Hebrew, Education: R&W (probably reads and Writes), Time Insane, 6 years (which would make his first attack 1886?) Cause: self abuse (which fits with Anderson’s description but is obviously laughable) Form of Disorder: Mania (most prob Schizophrenia) Symptoms of Disorder: Incoherance (which probably relates to the reason for his admittal NEW ATTACK more Serious) Bodily State: Fair, Discharged: 19th April 1894 (which means he was transferred in 1889) in a day book from the day before it states:

“He declares that he is guided ad his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, he says that he knows the movements of all man kind, he refuses food from others because he is told to do so, he refuses food from others because he is told to do so, and he eats from the gutter for the same reason. Jacob Cohen, 51 Carter lane, St Paul’s EC1 says he goes about the streets and picks up bits of bread out of the gutter and eats them, he drinks water from a tap and he refuses food from the hands of others. He took a knife and threatened the life of his sister. He is very dirty and will not be washed. He has not attempted any kind of work for years. Signed HK Houchin”,

His condition was described as “MANIA” the equivalent of today’s Schizophrenia.

By the 6th February either Aaron was suffering a far more serious psychotic attacks or his family had serious reasons for wanting him admitted, possibly both. Schizophrenics ARE NOT DANGEROUS! THIS TYPE OF MURDER IS SO RARE IT IS ALMOST UNIUE .

“Observations: on admission patient is extremely deluded. As mentioned in certificate he believes that all his actions are dominated by an ‘Instinct’ this is probably aual hallucination. Answers questions fairly but is included to be reticent and morose. Health fair.”

In case notes there after are biannual and relate in main to his physical condition. (which suggests little change) as They tell us nothing about his mental condition, the nature of his hallucinations, or what he said or did. 1891 Feb 10th: ‘Is rather difficult to deal with on account of the dominant Character of his delusions, Refused to be bathed the other day as his instinct forbade him’>1891 April 21, Incoherent, apathetic, inoccupied, still the same ‘instinct’ objecting to weekly bath. Health fair. 1892 jan9 (following year) Incoherent. At times excited & VIOLENT-few days ago he took a chair and attempted to strike the charge attendant: apathetic as a rule, and refuses to occupy himself in any way-Habits cleanly-Health fair. 1892 Nov 17. Quiet and well behaved. Only speaks German. Does no work. 1893 Jan 18 (Two years after committal) Chronic Mania. Intelligence impaired: at times noisy, excited and incoherent: unoccupied-habits cleanly-health fair (this suggests at least another psychotic episode in his mental state which was apparently better before this?) 1893 April 8 incoherent. Quiet lately. Fair health. 1893 Sept 18 employed. Indolent, but quiet and clean in habits. Never employed. Answers questions concerning himself. 1894 April 13 Demented and incoherent, health fair 1894 April 19th Discharged. Relieved. Leavesden.

By this time Aaron appears to have reached a condition common amoung Schizophrenics called ‘Burn Out” this is normally reached mid thirties so at 22 developing the illness and 34 reaching ‘burnout’ Aaron shows all the classic signs of schizophrenic behavior pattern.

Aaron was committed to Leavesdon on 19th April 1894, nearest relative given as Mrs Kosminski possibly his mother Golda who by this time was also living in London. There are annual entries about his health but little change in his condition he dies 24 March 1919 age 59. He was given a traditional Jewish burial by his family. Aaron was only 7 stone 8lbs 10oz when he died. But he had clearly wasted away and this tells us little about his appearance in 1888. Is it possible he looked anything like any of the witness statements.

I have given the following information. If you choose to ignore it, that is up to you.

However Aaron was almost certainly a schizophrenic. Everything above points to this fact given what is KNOWN. And thus possibilities according to that condition are possible. I’m not saying that Aarom Kosminski was Jack the Ripper. I’m saying:

“ GIVEN WHAT IS KNOWN ABOUT SCHIZOPHRENIA, IT IS A POSSIBILITY THAT AARON COULD HAVE COMIMMITED THE CRIMES IN EARLY STAGES OF THAT ILLNESS”

I have consulted a number of experts on this. I have provided factual evidence. I have supplied what is KNOWN.

I think you have become to emotionally involved with Aaron as an ‘idea’, and with to much ‘pre-conception’ to view the FACTS in a detached way?

Yours Jeff

PS we are also well off thread. BUt claiming Aaron Kosminski was suffering from Dementia and not schizophrenia is highly miss leading.

[Natalie Severn]

Listen Jeff,
If you look it up in the Oxford Medical Book,you will find it is in current usage so instead of using dense medical jargon why not lets use a term most of us will understand?
I am well aware of the debates about schizophrenia---a generic term as I said yesterday,covering several forms of that illness.RD Laing didnt believe it existed as an illness either but somewhere along the line certain symptoms repeat themselves so frequently ,in different individuals , and to such a degree , that a generic term,such as "schizophrenia "might seem warranted .
In my view ,if Kosminski did suffer from schizophrenia,and not an early form of dementia---as was indicated in his records, then he suffered from the completely harmless form of it -such as "hebephrenia"-or close to and was most unlikely to have suffered from the much more dangerous,paranoid form of that illness.

[Adam Went]

Here's a question for you all about Druitt:

If we assume for a moment that he was the killer of Annie Chapman, and therefore Jack the Ripper, why on earth would he wait until 5.30 AM to kill his victim when he knew full well he had a game of cricket on a few hours later?

Annie is by far the latest murder time-wise in the series. Other murders, like that of Liz Stride, took place shortly after midnight! If Druitt had decided to go out and kill that night, for whatever reason, he could have gone out, found his victim at 1 or 2 in the morning, done the deed, gone home to bed and rocked up at his cricket match nice and fresh and ready to play.

It makes no sense at all that he would wait until 5.30 to do it!

Infact, nothing in the case against Druitt makes any sense....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,
I wish you would stop saying Aaron Kosminski was schizophrenic as though you had put your white coat on and examined him yourself ---or rather "psychoanalysed" him for yourself. NOBODY KNOWS WHETHER AARON KOSMINSKI SUFFERED FROM "SCHIZOPHRENIA " .You are guessing on the basis of no real evidence again.

Aaron Kosminski could not be further away from the type of criminal Jack the Ripper was.He lived a completely harmless life,in both Colney Hatch and Leavesdon asylums -a life punctured by some form of dementia according to his medical records.He was not a paranoid schizophrenic.If he had have been we would have indications in his records that he had bouts of psychosis throughout his twenties and thirties.As I have said before,such bouts could not have been controlled by drugs in those days, so they would have featured in his records, and they dont.

Hi Nats

I dont wish to fall out here.

However I can only base my opinion on that given to me by expert opinion.

Tis the nature of Ripperology.

The simple fact remains that almost certainly Aaron Kosminski was suffering from Schizophrenia. Your own accounts and theorizing point to this also.

I agree it cant be stated as fact. But I think 99.9 percent will do for most people.

Paraniod schizophrenia as I have explained is not a good term. As all schizophrenics have elements of paranoia. It would indeed be better if we had secific 'syndromes' but we dont.

But until experts agree, we must go with schizophrenia as a blanket illness. And Aaron was a schizophrenic. His symptoms being typical of that illness.

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Jeff,
I wish you would stop saying Aaron Kosminski was schizophrenic as though you had put your white coat on and examined him yourself ---or rather "psychoanalysed" him for yourself. NOBODY KNOWS WHETHER AARON KOSMINSKI SUFFERED FROM "SCHIZOPHRENIA " .You are guessing on the basis of no real evidence again.

Aaron Kosminski could not be further away from the type of criminal Jack the Ripper was.He lived a completely harmless life,in both Colney Hatch and Leavesdon asylums -a life punctured by some form of dementia according to his medical records.He was not a paranoid schizophrenic.If he had have been we would have indications in his records that he had bouts of psychosis throughout his twenties and thirties.As I have said before,such bouts could not have been controlled by drugs in those days, so they would have featured in his records, and they dont.

[Jonathan H]

It's late here and I'm very tired.

Somehow your previous post says we sort of do NOT agree about the argument for Kosminski??

Huh?

Ahh, RipperWorld, you've gotta love it ...