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  • #61
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    The 1891 UK Census shows Admiral Henry Fleet living in Minster in Sheppey, so presumably he was in Blackheath before this. I don't have a hard date or address.
    I lied to you, Wick .

    I rechecked my notes and I do have an address for Henry Fleet in 1888. He was living at The Grove, Blackheath in November 1888, where his wife gave birth to a son.

    It looks like it was about a 10-minute walk from 9 Eliot Place.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

      At the time - maybe, but since, we have found out so much circumstantial evidence, rumors, beliefs, etc., that Druitt was a possible candidate. Herlock will remember this better than I do, but there was a 19th century rumor that Jack the Ripper had lived at Blackheath, or something like that. I should look it up, but where on earth could a rumor like that have come from if suspicion about Druitt was only remarked on by Mac. in that memorandum, and nowhere else?
      There's more to this line of thinking than we know of.

      I was about to leap into action Wick because it’s rare for me to be giving info to you (it’s usually the other way) but Mr P has beaten me to it. I believe that the quote he posted was originally discovered by Paul Begg.
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes.

      “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        We've had long debates on that, opinions expressed in the late 19th century, as opposed to today, suggest he meant 'oversexed', if I recall correctly.
        The idea he was gay is modern, based primarily on the fact he taught at a boys school. But we also looked at the employees at the school and there were female cleaners & cookery staff listed, so it is not true to suggest he surrounded himself with boys. Separate schools for boys and girls was the norm for the middle class and above, in his day.
        In case I was unclear, I wasn't implying that his teaching at a boys school should lead us to suspect that he was gay. I just meant that to be one possible example of something that a Victorian might be referring to when he called someone "sexually insane".

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

          We've had long debates on that, opinions expressed in the late 19th century, as opposed to today, suggest he meant 'oversexed', if I recall correctly.
          The idea he was gay is modern, based primarily on the fact he taught at a boys school. But we also looked at the employees at the school and there were female cleaners & cookery staff listed, so it is not true to suggest he surrounded himself with boys. Separate schools for boys and girls was the norm for the middle class and above, in his day.
          Believe it or not Wick, here in Ireland separate boys and girls schools are still the predominant feature and that is true for boys from all classes.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

            A man who, if someone looked into his life, might have been discovered to have had an alibi, for eg. a court appearance or some school or cricket-related business.

            Now you're talking my kind of language, Herlock.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

              I know my answer is not going to be that satisfying to anyone, but I don't find the reason for Druitt being JTR that saisfying either.
              Macnaghten's memorandum revealed his reasoning on Druitt. Prior to naming the 'three more likely suspects', he laid it out as follows:

              It will be noticed that the fury of the mutilations increased in each case, and, seemingly, the appetite only became sharpened by indulgence. It seems, then, highly improbable that the murderer would have suddenly stopped in November '88, and been content to recommence operations by merely prodding a girl behind some 2 years & 4 months afterwards. A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Miller's Court, and that he immediately committed suicide, or, as a possible alternative, was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations, that he was by them confined in some asylum.

              In sum:

              1) Macnaghten believed that Mary's murder was the culmination of an evolutionary cycle and the WM couldn't have gone on to commit a crime involving a lesser degree of violence.

              2) The WM wouldn't have stopped and therefore he must have committed suicide or he was committed to an asylum, and this includes a belief that Mary was his last murder which in turn was driven by his evolutionary cycle belief.

              Experience suggests Macnaghten was wrong on point 2. No serial killer in England has ever successfully filed an insanity plea, nor have any committed suicide (I think, not fully sure on that one). I suppose there are serial killers all over the world and you may find a few who buck the trend.

              Point 1 is debatable. Piquerism is under-researched but it is a broad term which includes cuts of varying severity and depth, and there is some evidence that the WM committed acts that broadly conform to the generally accepted definition of piquerism. Cutbush or otherwise, research suggests that sexual serial killers experiment during a crime series and the experimentation can happen anywhere within that crime series, which isn't in line with Macnaghten's 'evolutionary cycle' theory.

              Either way, Macnaghten was getting out of his area of expertise: he was a policeman and this part of his memorandum was a crude delve into the psychology of a serial killer, complete with next to no experience of that rare phenomenon.

              You'd have to say that his 'rational theory' and three suspects analysis, is more or less worthless (in terms of the psychology of the WM and the suspect status of 'the three more likely suspects').

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              • #67
                Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post


                Now you're talking my kind of language, Herlock.
                Id call this my starting point PI. I fully accept that the info could have been wrong/inaccurate or that Macnaghten himself could have misjudged its significance or strength. But if there’s one thing that I feel a level of confidence in is that Macnaghten didn’t just pluck Druitt’s name out of thin air because of the timing of his suicide. I’ve been of this opinion for years - ever since I first read Farson where he said something like ‘it’s Druitt’s unlikeliness that makes him intriguing.’ To me, his naming of Druitt is like some criminologist saying ‘I think that Bible John was either Peter Tobin, John Irvine McInnes or Billy Connolly!” Everyone would ask why the hell was Connolly on the list? He was in Glasgow and was 26 at the time.
                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                  You'd have to say that his 'rational theory' and three suspects analysis, is more or less worthless (in terms of the psychology of the WM and the suspect status of 'the three more likely suspects').


                  I agree.

                  As for his suicide theory:


                  In one case in France, Francois Vérove, an ex-policeman, on realising that the net was closing in on him, took his own life.

                  In a case in the Soviet Union, after being informed that he had been convicted of murder, Anatoly Maistruk, a Ukrainian, committed suicide.

                  In another case in the Soviet Union, Vyacheslav Markin, a Russian, ​committed suicide while awaiting trial for murder.

                  Another Russian, Denis Gorbunov, committed suicide two days after having been sentenced to life imprisonment for murder.

                  Yet another Russian, Artyom Grabovoi,​ committed suicide upon learning that he was being investigated for a murder he was later proven to have committed.

                  Yet another Russian, Andrey Yezhov, committed suicide after confessing to five murders and before he could be charged.

                  There have been many other cases of serial killers in the Soviet Union committing suicide in prison.


                  The point I am making is that they had rational reasons for committing suicide.

                  None of them committed suicide soon after having committed the last murder in a series, and without any reason to suppose that they were going to be brought to justice, which is what Macnaghten suggested.


                  His alternative theory, that shortly after the last murder in the series, the murderer was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations that they had to have him confined in an asylum again does not fit any known serial killer.

                  Why would a serial murderer suddenly become certifiably insane after committing a murder?​

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                    I fully accept that the info could have been wrong/inaccurate or that Macnaghten himself could have misjudged its significance or strength.


                    Would you not agree with me that in order for someone to have become a serious suspect, there would have had to be some reason to suppose that he had been frequenting the areas where the murders were committed when they were committed?

                    That point stands regardless of whether the suspect had an alibi on the strength of his cricketing tour of Dorset.

                    Druitt lived eight miles away from Whitechapel or Spitalfields and had no known lodgings in that area.

                    The double murders were committed at such times that he would not have been able to catch a train back home for hours afterwards.

                    The fact that he was in Dorset on a cricketing tour means that he could not have been stalking prostitutes in Whitechapel for any length of time during that tour.

                    It also means that if his relatives knew enough about his movements to have reason to suspect him, then they should have known about his trip to Dorset.

                    And if they knew about his trip to Dorset, why would they have suspected him?

                    There would have had to be something to connect him with Whitechapel or Spitalfields and it is evident that there was not.

                    No incriminating evidence was ever mentioned.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                      It's from My Life and a Few Yarns by H. L. Fleet.

                      Fleet discusses moving back to Blackheath in 1895 and remarks:

                      "When we lived there formerly, it was considered dangerous, for a terrible series of crimes committed by Jack the Ripper were then being perpetrated, and many people believed he lived in Blackheath."

                      See Hainsworth, p. 112-113.

                      The 1891 UK Census shows Admiral Henry Fleet living in Minster in Sheppey, so presumably he was in Blackheath before this. I don't have a hard date or address.
                      Thankyou R.J., precisely, if that account is accurate I am left wondering how could 'many people' believe the Ripper lived in Blackheath, if there was never any suspicions, even private ones, about Druitt. Don't we wish that Fleet could have elaborated on that remark.
                      Regards, Jon S.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                        I lied to you, Wick .

                        I rechecked my notes and I do have an address for Henry Fleet in 1888. He was living at The Grove, Blackheath in November 1888, where his wife gave birth to a son.

                        It looks like it was about a 10-minute walk from 9 Eliot Place.

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Admiral Fleet 1888.jpg
Views:	201
Size:	108.0 KB
ID:	827124
                        Thankyou again R.J.
                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                          In case I was unclear, I wasn't implying that his teaching at a boys school should lead us to suspect that he was gay. I just meant that to be one possible example of something that a Victorian might be referring to when he called someone "sexually insane".
                          I understand, I was only raising that argument because it has been used by others in past debates.
                          Regards, Jon S.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                            Macnaghten's memorandum revealed his reasoning on Druitt. Prior to naming the 'three more likely suspects', he laid it out as follows:

                            It will be noticed that the fury of the mutilations increased in each case, and, seemingly, the appetite only became sharpened by indulgence. It seems, then, highly improbable that the murderer would have suddenly stopped in November '88, and been content to recommence operations by merely prodding a girl behind some 2 years & 4 months afterwards. A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Miller's Court, and that he immediately committed suicide, or, as a possible alternative, was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations, that he was by them confined in some asylum.

                            In sum:

                            1) Macnaghten believed that Mary's murder was the culmination of an evolutionary cycle and the WM couldn't have gone on to commit a crime involving a lesser degree of violence.

                            2) The WM wouldn't have stopped and therefore he must have committed suicide or he was committed to an asylum, and this includes a belief that Mary was his last murder which in turn was driven by his evolutionary cycle belief.

                            Experience suggests Macnaghten was wrong on point 2. No serial killer in England has ever successfully filed an insanity plea, nor have any committed suicide (I think, not fully sure on that one). I suppose there are serial killers all over the world and you may find a few who buck the trend.

                            Point 1 is debatable. Piquerism is under-researched but it is a broad term which includes cuts of varying severity and depth, and there is some evidence that the WM committed acts that broadly conform to the generally accepted definition of piquerism. Cutbush or otherwise, research suggests that sexual serial killers experiment during a crime series and the experimentation can happen anywhere within that crime series, which isn't in line with Macnaghten's 'evolutionary cycle' theory.

                            Either way, Macnaghten was getting out of his area of expertise: he was a policeman and this part of his memorandum was a crude delve into the psychology of a serial killer, complete with next to no experience of that rare phenomenon.

                            You'd have to say that his 'rational theory' and three suspects analysis, is more or less worthless (in terms of the psychology of the WM and the suspect status of 'the three more likely suspects').
                            Macnaghten's attempt to rationalize the rumors we are told he learned 'behind closed doors', in my view, have no bearing on whether those rumors were true. So that quote carried no weight with me anyway. Macnaghten was not a psychologist so his thoughts cannot be used, in my opinion.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post

                              The point I am making is that they had rational reasons for committing suicide.
                              For what it's worth, when we read the summary of the suicide note - and all we have is the summary by the coroner, I think researchers have followed the wrong path.
                              What I read in the note was Druitt's fear of being like mother, incarcerated for life. That is why he chose suicide, not because of the murders - but because if found guilty, first there's the shame he brings to his family, then second is the fact he would be caged like an animal for as long as he lives.

                              But, that is only if the suicide note is genuine.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post

                                There would have had to be something to connect him with Whitechapel or Spitalfields and it is evident that there was not.

                                No incriminating evidence was ever mentioned.
                                There's some charity that either had an office, or was based right in the Whitechapel area. Druitt had made contributions to this charity, no known records have survived to suggest he made frequent visits. It's just a potential connection that has fizzled out over time.
                                I'm suspecting this was in one of Hainsworth's books too.

                                It only demonstrates there is still more about Druitt that we don't know, than what we do.
                                And, we all should have learned how precarious it is to cast judgement in situations where we lack sufficient knowledge.
                                Regards, Jon S.

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