Reasons why?

[kensei]

I may be showing my ignorance here- I've studied the Ripper case quite a bit but not nearly as much, I know, as many of the members here and I do still consider myself a relative beginner. When it comes to Druitt, from what I've read it seems the basic reasons for him being a suspect are that he committed suicide just after the murders ceased, that mental illness played a large part, and because it became known that members of his family suspected him of being the Ripper. But I've never heard an explanation of just exactly WHY his family thought that. Can anyone clarify this? Sorry if this might have been covered before.

[dougie]

SOMEBODY (inmo) felt druitt had violent tendencies,maybe a history of violence towards women,which MAYBE had been kept quiet,perhaps by family members,perhaps by friends. suspecting a friend or family member of being jtr isnt something one would do lightly..so im assuming that there was a good reason...........these suspivcions ,or accusations arent in the same league as those aimed at police officer thicke for example..a clear case of revenge.....not either in the same league as some of the other silly accusations made against a few others,which were driven by malice,or accusations
from some headline seeking individual.
you are no more of a "beginner" than the rest of us by the way...none of us KNOW anything anyhow.......bear that in mind ,or rather keep an open mind.
regards

[aspallek]

There is no way to know the cause of the Druitt family suspicions. We simply must accept that. However, we may presume those suspicions were real. They were likely reported to Macnaghten by someone close to the family, close either in proximity or by friendship or perhaps both. As Dougue says, this kind of suspicion from one's own family is not something to be taken lightly. There must have been some compelling reason for this suspicion. Druitt does not fit the mold of the typical Ripper suspect of the day. He is neither foreign nor Jewish. Is is not from the working class. He's not quite aristocracy but he is from the upper levels of society -- from "a good family" as Sir Melville put it. He had mental issues but he was not a raving lunatic.

What was the basis for the family suspicion? That's the unanswerable question. MY guess is that it may have had something to do with Montague's visit to brother William at the end of October. Perhaps while there, Montague behaved irregularly and said strange things -- things that caused his relatives to think and wonder about him. Maybe then they realized that they could not establish Montague's whereabouts at the time of the murders. Who knows, maybe there were even blood-stained clothes found among his belongings -- as the West of England MP claimed of the murderer. But that's not very likely.

While the Druitt family was wondering about Montague, they got word that he had gone missing and then of his death. No need to contact authorities about their suspicions now. Instead, brother William lies at the inquest in order to protect other family members. Over the course of the next two years the Druitt family suspicions gradually leak out to those in their area. Eventually, they attract the attention of the MP who begins to circulate them forcefully, but the talk is pushed from the public forum by the murder of Frances Coles and also by fear of libel action against this MP. The MP's knowledge is preserved in Macnaghten's memorandum and bits and pieces emerge publicly in the writings of Griffiths, Sims, and later, others. But Druitt, the unlikely gentleman suspect, lies dormant until Farson stumbles across him sixty years later.

It's not quite as simple as all that, but that's the core of it.

[Dan Norder]

you are no more of a "beginner" than the rest of us by the way...none of us KNOW anything anyhow.......

Hey, when beginners actually admit to being new to the case and looking for information, that's a good thing. Sure beats the people running around pretending that anyone off the street just magically knows as much as the people who have been researching the case quite extensively for years. Not knowing the identity of the killer isn't the same as not knowing anything.

[dougie]

ok ,;lets say not "knowing" in the sense .yes. of not knowing who the culprit was indeed,but ....with the evidence that is out there,conflicting at times,it largely comes down to each persons view of things,and what he/she deems relevant ,and of course which source one believes,or half believes or whatever...theories abound,what some people believe in implicitly others discount entirely.one could research the ripper case for a lifetime and still not KNOW for sure any more than the guy thats read one ripper book and watches one documentary. the point is, even regarding life and society in the east end in 1880s,we can read of it,but unless we were actually there,we have no
real understanding of it,instead we rely on what others have written,and from that form our own mental picture, no doubt as distorted to a smaller or lesser degree as the author s
when i said not knowing"anything", it wasnt meant literally,cos of course everybody knows"something"..just that some think they "know" a lot more than they actually do ,those are the ones who usually take umbrage at any innocent remark that they feel undermines their authority as an "expert".
if an answer is found to this mystery,i feel almost certainly it will come from an "amatuer" and most likely from a chance discovery which wont arise from any amount of "researching" or "researchers".

[Debra A]

if an answer is found to this mystery,i feel almost certainly it will come from an "amatuer" and most likely from a chance discovery which wont arise from any amount of "researching" or "researchers".

It'll just jump out and bite some random person on the arse will it Dougie?!


....it won't be based on 120 years research then, the type that has tried to separate fact from fiction that this amateur of your's will be reading? Afterall, Macnaghten himself was never involved in the case at the time, he based his theory on his own ...."research" surely?

[dougie]

bite someone on the arse? im not sure a document, diary,or whatever else has the physical capability to "bite someone on the arse" if it has maybe there is a market for reinforced underpants......ill look into it
ok a chance discovery......yes thats what i said.....after all 120 years of research hasnt got us any nearer finding the culprit has it?and the fact and the fictionis still intermingled. macnaughton? yes he based his theory on his research,but then everyone (or most everyone) seems to disregard his ideas...so what exactly is your point?
and by the way "this amatuer of mine" isnt mine at all and modst likely any relevant find by "my amatuer" would prob by discarded by the "experts" purely because "they" (the experts") didnt find it earlier. a little less snobbery wouldnt go amiss i fear.

[aspallek]

It'll just jump out and bite some random person on the arse will it Dougie?!


....it won't be based on 120 years research then, the type that has tried to separate fact from fiction that this amateur of your's will be reading? Afterall, Macnaghten himself was never involved in the case at the time, he based his theory on his own ...."research" surely?

Debra, it's a little misleading to say that Macnaghten was "never involved in the case at the time." True, he was not with the police at the time the canonical murders were taking place but the investigation was still very much open when Sir Melville came aboard. He also had good access to the principals who were involved in the investigation. So, while you are technically true, it is not a very crushing blow to Macnaghten's capacity to shift through the evidence.

[Debra A]

Hi Andy
I am having difficulty with being technically true whilst misleading at the same time.....ok then, Macnaghten was not with the police at the time of the 'Macnaghten five' murders and I do agree that Macnaghten probably had access to to the principals (I am taking it you mean investigators here, but maybe you mean witnesses?) who were involved in the investigation when he did join the force in June 1889.... principals who never seemed to come to the same conclusion about the murderer though. Macnaghten himself does say that he was going on 'private information,' to me that gives the impression that he was on a solo investigation and anything he turned up was due to his own research and outside of what was officially on file?

Hi Dougie

bite someone on the arse? im not sure a document, diary,or whatever else has the physical capability to "bite someone on the arse

...I believe microfilm has the capability having seen it for myself this weekend....lethal things they are!
I think I was trying to back up what said Dan in a way, there is no snobbery involved, ,having witnessed first hand the time, effort and expense that a lot of 'researchers' go to to trying and sort out the dross of the case I think people who claim that a person who reads one book (researched by someone else btw) could come up with something new is ludicrous....how are they going to find anything new unless they are looking?....and then they fall into the category of researcher don't they?!

[Graham]

At the risk of being tedious, the ONLY connection we have between Druitt and JtR is the Macnaghten Memoranda. If Sir Melville really did have 'private ino' linking Druitt to the Ripper, it has never been discovered. If it ever is, then it will be red hot news. The pamphlet 'The East End Murderer - I Knew Him-, purportedly written and published by one Lionel Druitt in Australia is, so far as I'm aware, a dead end and with no plausible basis whatsoever.

I am not saying - and have never said - that Sir Melville was away with the fairies apropos Montague Druitt, but until such time as there is a much firmer basis for accepting his proposal of Druitt as the Ripper, Druitt's name must be added to the long list of 'perhaps', 'possibles' and 'maybe's'. There really is no proof whatsoever.

I would still like to see absolute and incontroversible proof that the Druitt Family of around 1888 thought that Montague was in any way connected with the Ripper Murders. Their speculated suspicion is precisely that - just speculation.

On another thread, I posted that I would like to see some kind of support to the notion that serial killers operate outside their own particular social group - so far, nix. Druitt was, so far as the East End of 1888 is concerned, a toff. And I submit that, by and large, a toff with any ambition to serial killing would keep himself to his own social grouping. Prove me wrong.

Cheers,

Graham

[Rob Clack]

Hi Debs,

Sounds a bit to much like common sense what you are saying there .

I don't know why people seem to think Macnaughten is the dogs bollocks, a lot of his facts are wrong, Ostrog wasn't even in the country is a massive bloomer. He comes across as a very unreliable person and frankly everything he says should be treated with caution.

Yeah, microfilm is highly dangerous and should be treated with extreme caution.

Rob

[perrymason]

Hello all,

When you are faced with equal amounts of evidence available to justify accusing anyone being a legitimate suspect, which is none... beyond bare-bones circumstantial, then Druitt belongs as much as anyone on the suspects list. I would think that is the only reason to support Macnaughten's allegations about him anyway.

Although very new to the study, it seemed pretty clear early on that any opinions offered by any of the Senior Officials on Suspects, at the time of the killings or after, should be taken with caution...as there is no proof to support any of their allegations presented. I think the only real clues lie in the medical opinions, as the "proof" of their opinions is in their documented analysis of the wounds.

And we all know the Post Mortems are only a piece of the puzzle.

I think its important when discussing these characters that we do not hold any suspect opinion too credible, because no-one is wrong when questioning their suppositions and innuendo. The "Memorandum" is entitled in self-explanatory fashion...they are thoughts and notes. No proof of anything.

My best regards all.

[dougie]

Hi Andy


Hi Dougie

...I believe microfilm has the capability having seen it for myself this weekend....lethal things they are!
I think I was trying to back up what said Dan in a way, there is no snobbery involved, ,having witnessed first hand the time, effort and expense that a lot of 'researchers' go to to trying and sort out the dross of the case I think people who claim that a person who reads one book (researched by someone else btw) could come up with something new is ludicrous....how are they going to find anything new unless they are looking?....and then they fall into the category of researcher don't they?!

debra,
Not necessarily do they fall under the category of researchers ..no.....chance discovery is just that..chance...i could find a gold kruggerand stuffed down the back of fluffy chair at a boot sale...unlikely tho that might well be...it could happen,and..i wouldnt necessarilly have to be looking for a gold krugerrand when i found it would i? so no its not ludicrous at all....and i disagree, there is much snobbery in this business...ive seen it first hand,and thats not obnly on this forum.....
to research is not always to find,sometimes the "amatuer" (in any field) can take the direct route to a solution quietly ,while the "pro" might take a circuitious route ,find nothing,but still inform his minions of his travels. sorry but im no respecter of reputations,so i guess well have to agree to disagree.
regards

[dougie]

itd would be interesting to know why druitts on the list.....no reason for him to be there at all it would appear at first glance ,and as present knowledge stands......no sensible person would be convinced of his guilt based purely on his suicide,and the feelings or suspivcions of friends relatives alone. yet macnaughton appears to have been as sure as he could be .whys that? is it because there WAS evidence linking druitt to the crimes,independent of convenient suicide date and the relatives/friends suspicions? and were those relatives suspicions merely the "icing on the cake" to macnaughton? circumstial evidence to add to the evidence he allready had/knew of?
i would say to discount druitt would be a rash act at this time...and more importantly unjustified...... totally unjustified.
regards

[aspallek]

Debra,

No quarrels. I believe we mean the same thing about Macnaghten's involvement.

Graham,

Actually, it is not only the Macnaghten memorandum that ties Druitt to JtR. While only Macnaghten names him there is a source that pre-dates the memorandum. There is the "West of England MP" who said in 1891 that the Ripper was "the son of a surgeon" and that he had committed suicide after the last murder. Although there are inconsistencies in the article as well, this is too close not to be a reference Druitt, especially when you consider the source.

I do agree with your main point, however, that there is no absolutely proof of Druitt's involvement.