Is it plausible that Druitt did it?

[aspallek]

The "territorial" argument is a good point against Druitt, I agree. However, it is far from fatal. As I understand the geographical profile theory, serial killers begin by killing rather farther away from their residences and then gradually as they get more bold the killing takes place closer to home. I would argue that in this case we have only 4 murder dates, which is not enough for a reliable profile.

But again, there are certainly good arguments against Druitt. We need to pay attention to these as well.

[Ben]

Caz, Caz, Caz.

Your argument that an outsider would definitely have done this, that or the other, while a local would not, doesn't sound like it's based on sound enough logic to me

Well, it may not seem so to someone who's invested a lot of emotional stock in a particular "wealthy outsider" suspect theory, but to everybody else, it should make pretty clear sense.

If Jack was a user a prostitutes before he started ripping them up, then yes, the chances are he'd find somewhere suitable, without venturing throughout Greater London in search of prostitution pastures anew each time. However, if he lived in the West End (or anywhere that wasn't the East End really) the chances of that "somewhere suitable" being grotty Spitalfields every single time is extremely unlikely.

Moreover, if that user of prostitutes mutated into a killer of prostitutes, there was no longer any incentive to stick to one closely concentrated prostitute hot spot and keep commuting there every time, despite the prevalence of prostitution elsewhere, despite the availability of transport, and despite the fact that police presence would have increased every time.

If he was locally resident, he wouldn't have had the transport to familiarise himself with ripping pastures anew elsewhere, unlike our well travelled commuter toff. He was forced to make do with a locality with which he was closely familiar; somewhere where he could get off the streets as quickly as possibly after the killings; somewhere that resided to the East of Mitre Square.

[dougie]

No Dougie, we don't know the exact wording of the suicide note. But we can only try and interpret what we have, and unless there is any reason to believe that what we have is virtually the opposite of what Monty actually wrote, or that he directly contradicted himself within the same note by adding stuff that has not survived, I think we have to accept this was no blame-shifting, "poor me" exercise.

Love,

Caz
X

well if we dont know what the exact words were ,and dont have the complete contents we can hardly interpret it correctly. and how does one ascertain whether he contradicted himself or otherwise . its not possible to accept ,or not accept much at all,based on what we know of the note.and it seems odd the complete contents didnt survive in some fashion or other. maybe the note was long -winded and a summary was necessary? or maybe the full contents were with held,if so there would,i presume have been a reason. and at this late stage its hardly fair to either put words into druitts mouth ,or presume his guilt or innocence based on the phrase.."since frifday i felt i was going to be like mother" etc....
regards

[caz]

Ben, Ben, Ben.

If Jack was a user of prostitutes before he started ripping them up, chances are he didn't pick London roads or locations at random for either activity, but got used to a limited number of roads in a specific area or areas, which provided exactly what he wanted. That holds true whether he lived or worked in those same roads or further afield. All he then had to do was adapt his behaviour once he got the women alone. If the heat was too much for a man who didn't live locally, after just a handful of murders, the same would surely hold true for one who did. And whoever he was, he stopped operating in Whitechapel before he got buckled.

So what was stopping your local nobody from finding prostitutes in other areas just as easily as you believe an outsider would have done when the police presence increased? In Romford even. Or was yours excused walking?

Your argument that an outsider would definitely have done this, that or the other, while a local would not, doesn't sound like it's based on sound enough logic to me. And it's certainly not based on statistics for unidentified serial killers, as Jack was.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

the entire East End was a heaving mass of them and it hardly took a certified "user" to figure out where to find them.

Absolutely, Lars, but no "outsider" needed to expend any effort looking for prostitutes, especially if he was Mr. Fancy Pants swanning in from the West End. It would have been a case of plonking your cab in the area of Aldgate (where Kelly herself was reported to have ventured) and waiting for offers. It wouldn't have been "extremely crowded" for the simple reason that Whitechapel was not the Prostitute Centre of London it is often imagined to be, and you had prostitutes aplenty in the West End.

Thanks for reading my post.

[Mr Poster]

hi ho

Prostitute killers are invariably prostitute users, that's how they build up a knowledge of their haunts, and of where the most suitable locations are.

perhaps. But in the LVP killing prostitutes in the East End does not necessarily mean a prostitute user was doing it (inferred from his "knowing" where their haunts were) as, unlike today where they may frequent certain busstops or whatever....the entire East End was a heaving mass of them and it hardly took a certified "user" to figure out where to find them.

Unless someone wants to argue that the thousands of them in London's East End only hung around in one or two specific (and only known to users) streets.

In which case it must have been extremely crowded.

p

[Ben]

It's doubtful that all the victims were solicited on the main arterial thoroughfares. Polly Nichols probably encountered her killer that way, but the same cannot be as easily argued with Stride and Chapman. And the idea of a toff "commuting in" to patrol the same roads each time when he could just as well "commute" to other prostitute locations in London to avoid an increasing police presence, runs contrary to experience and common sense.

Cheers,
Ben

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Prostitute killers are invariably prostitute users, that's how they build up a knowledge of their haunts, and of where the most suitable locations are. If he was a toff with a taste for East End prostitutes before he became slashy in one oddly specific location, he wouldn't have had any reason to seek out the prostitutes where they lived and build up a knowledge of their residential area in the process. They'd come to him.

Best regards,
Ben

I agree with the first part. But Jack didn't seek out the prostitutes where they lived - unless you have evidence that Polly lived in Buck's Row or the nearest main road; Annie at 29 Hanbury St or the nearest main road; Liz in Berner St, or Kate in Mitre Square or the nearest main road. And who says Jack even sought out Mary where she lived, and didn't just bump into her on a main road - not necessarily on the night she died - and learned about indoor services on offer?

You're arguing against yourself here, Ben. Anyone choosing to use the services of cheap prostitutes by picking them up on the main roads could have used the exact same method when picking them up to murder and mutilate them. Their social status doesn't need to enter into it.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

No Dougie, we don't know the exact wording of the suicide note. But we can only try and interpret what we have, and unless there is any reason to believe that what we have is virtually the opposite of what Monty actually wrote, or that he directly contradicted himself within the same note by adding stuff that has not survived, I think we have to accept this was no blame-shifting, "poor me" exercise.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

Prostitute killers are invariably prostitute users, that's how they build up a knowledge of their haunts, and of where the most suitable locations are. If he was a toff with a taste for East End prostitutes before he became slashy in one oddly specific location, he wouldn't have had any reason to seek out the prostitutes where they lived and build up a knowledge of their residential area in the process. They'd come to him.

Best regards,
Ben

[dougie]

[QUOTE=caz;2210][LEFT]


Hi Graham,

It’s a good question.

But even if the answer is a resounding “No!” it will only tell us about identified

Hi All,

I also think that if Monty had been Jack, his suicide note would have reflected more self pity, more self absorption, and possibly some attempt to shift the blame for his fate onto others. On the contrary, he seems to have had other people’s welfare in mind, saying he was afraid he was going to end up like mother (who was hardly comparable with a serial killer!) and thought it would be best for all concerned if he were no longer around. If this was all a


Love,

Caz
X
we dont know EXACTLY what was in the suicide note,so maybe his note did reflect those very sentiments...and perhaps more...
regards

[caz]

Anyone seeking an East End prostitute need only have waited in Aldgate for the working girls to come to them.

Er, I'm not quite sure what your argument is here, Ben.

Jack was seeking suitable victims in the area to rip up, wasn't he? So he 'need only have waited in Aldgate' for the working girls to come to him.

If he did anything beyond that, he did more than he needed to do - in your own opinion.

Which means you can try to fence him in as much as you like - but he won't necessarily go.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

Hi all,

If a serial killer's crimes are closely clustered and within easy walking distance of eachother, he will invariably have a bolt-hole within that "close cluster", and this holds true especially for the LVP, when transport availaility was limited. Since the area under scrutiny was populated, in the main, by the proletariat, it's more than likely that the killer was one of their number. It wouldn't make sense for a "toff" living some distance away from the murder locale to keep commuting into the same prozzie hot-spot each time, especially when police presence was stepping up after each murder. There were plenty of other prostitute-populated domiciles in London.

Those angling for an upper-class suspect (for whatever reason) tend to refer very often to the practice of "slumming" and argue that everyone did it all the time, but in reality, most slummers wouldn't have been familiar with the district (often a guide was required), and those that did tended to make for the bawdy music halls as opposed to the Northen end of Commercial Street where the lowliest lived. Anyone seeking an East End prostitute need only have waited in Aldgate for the working girls to come to them.

Best regards,
Ben

[caz]

Is there any serial killer, before or since, who chose as his victims those above or below his social status? This is a question - not a challenge.

Cheers,

Graham.

Hi Graham,

It’s a good question.

But even if the answer is a resounding “No!” it will only tell us about identified serial killers. As always, the unidentified ones remain unidentified for a potential host of unidentified reasons - including perhaps their ‘choice’ of victim.

The problem here is that an unidentified killer of strangers may ‘choose’ victims who are above, below or equal to his social status for more complex reasons than their class alone, although that could also have its own relevance. What ‘social status’ did a late Victorian prostitute have, whether she earned a good living in the West End, or barely managed to scrape one at all in the East? The clap has no class and I assume it itches just as badly for a toff or a pauper. Similarly, the serial killer who attacks prostitutes because they make the most convenient, easily available and vulnerable victims, is unlikely to be thinking of their social status, so much as where they can quickly be picked up and taken to with the least amount of fuss and bother. While a toff may have wanted his prostitutes as wholesome as his money could buy, his priorities would arguably have changed if he wanted one to rip up rather than get all cosy with.

If young Monty had never used a prostitute anywhere before the middle of 1888 (and he may have done, of course), I have doubts as to whether he would have had sufficient confidence to take on the likes of Polly, Liz, Kate or Mary on their home turf. The man most likely to get away with serial murder, it seems to me, is the one who picks on those whose habits in general or situation in particular are not alien to him.

Age, appearance, social status, race, gender and sexuality may all be incidental to the familiarity Jack already has with the behaviour of potential victims. Thus a gay psychiatric nurse, who planned a campaign of murder in recent years at the age of 50 (and wrote about it in his diary ), targeted other gays looking for comfort on Hampstead Heath. In this instance the potential victims would all have been male, gay, available and vulnerable. But in any other respect they could have come in all shapes and sizes and from royalty downwards.

Hi All,

I also think that if Monty had been Jack, his suicide note would have reflected more self pity, more self absorption, and possibly some attempt to shift the blame for his fate onto others. On the contrary, he seems to have had other people’s welfare in mind, saying he was afraid he was going to end up like mother (who was hardly comparable with a serial killer!) and thought it would be best for all concerned if he were no longer around. If this was all a lie, it’s not the kind of lie I see Jack needing or wanting to tell. Why write a note at all? Jack had his own interests in mind, and at most he may have imagined he was doing the world a favour by sticking around to kill prossies for as long as poss.

I didn’t get time to catch up with the Druitt threads before they were lost, so I missed everything from about the beginning of February. Has there been any clarification yet from Philip’s source regarding these supposed alibis for Monty? It doesn‘t appear so. It must be terribly frustrating for Andy et al to go on researching his life and death if there really is secret squirrel evidence out there that conclusively eliminates him as a suspect.

Love,

Caz
X

[Johnr]

My "scenario" for MJD on the other thread.

Thanks for your kind words Dougie,
In keeping with the firm rules laid down on this new Forum site, I have taken
my brief summarised theoretical scenario over to the "Reasons Why?" thread.
JOHN RUFFELS.