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So it was him! Just not the C5

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  • So it was him! Just not the C5

    An interesting article on Deeming from March '92 just after hs arrest in WA.


    Bathurst Free Press and Mining Journal 26 March 1892




    Latest Intelligence.

    THE CONFESSION CONFIRMED.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    THE PRISONER OPENS HIS HEART TO HIS ATTORNEY.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    ADMITS THAT HE COMMITTED THE RAINHAM MURDERS.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    AND IS 'JACK THE RIPPER.'
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    STARTS FOR MELBOURNE IN IRONS.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    [By Telegraph]

    [From our own Correspondent.]

    SYDNEY, Saturday. Deeming left Perth yesterday for Albany where the steamer for Melbourne will be boarded. He will be manacled and confined in a cabin during the voyage. The Herald's Perth correspondent has con firmed the alleged confession of Swanston, that he was implicated in both the Kainhill and Whitechapel murders.

    The confession was made by Deeming to his legal adviser, Mr. Haynes. When the case was first placed in his hands Mr. Haynes demanded to know tho whole strength of his defence. Deeming replied that he would make a clean breast of it, and then said he was guilty of the Rainhill murders.

    On the subject of the Windsor murder, how ever, a careful reticence was observed on both sides.

    Mr. Haynes then asked his client whether he was 'Jack the Ripper' and Deeming replied that he had committed the last two murders in 1890, but that be knew nothing of the previous ones. It is understood that Deeming relies for his defence upon the fact that the murder was alleged to have been committed on the 24th December, and he can produce witnesses that his wife was seen in Melbourne five days later.
    Make of it what you will, but another report to follow that ads interest.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

  • #2
    Could the ex-officer mean Deeming?


    Kerang Times and Swan Hill Gazette 5 March 1889

    "Jack the Ripper' in Sydney.


    An ex-member of the New South Wales detective force has an investigation in hand for the presumed identification of " Jack the Ripper." The ex-officer in question says The Telegraph, has a photograph in his possession which almost exactly answers to the description of the man being searched for, and he identifies him from various circumstances. Some years ago, it is said, the supposed murderer was an employee in a large wholesale importing house near Wynyard Square. Whilst in Sydney he contracted an illness which caused him to be dismissed from his situation. He began to drink heavily, became a monomaniac, and got somewhat deeply into debt. Whilst under the influence of liquor he was frequently heard to swear that if ever he left this country he would "have the lives of a hundred of them." He departed by a sailing vessel either for Plymouth or for London, and prior to leaving had for weeks carried with him a small surgeon's knife, with which on one occasion, when aggravated by a demand for money lent, he made a deliberate attempt to stab the ex-officer in question, who had bailed him up late at night in Hyde Park.
    Deeming was almost certainly in Australia at around this time, he is said in the police files to have left Sydney about Dec 1887 to avoid arrest and we know that at various times he worked in companies engaged in providing goods to the building industry [mainly plumbing].

    Or is it all more BS with an ex-copper looking for him moment in the spot-light?
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

    Comment


    • #3
      Deeming worked at one stage for Keating and Co in Sydney who had offices not for from Wynyard. He also worked for Danks & Sons who were importers but I can't locate their office address in Sydney.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

      Comment


      • #4
        This them?


        1889
        John Danks & Son Limited was formed

        1859
        Danks Holdings Limited is one of the oldest family businesses in Australia's top 500 companies, and the largest independent hardware wholesale distribution operation in the country.
        John Danks & Son Pty Ltd began as a plumbing business in 1859, established by brothers John and Samuel. It occupied a prominent site in Bourke Street, Melbourne, for 100 years.
        The business quickly grew to include factories in Melbourne and Sydney which manufactured and supplied a variety of plumbing and engineering products such as brassware, pumps, windmills and bells.


        https://www.danks.com.au/public/comp...e/timeline.htm

        There's some resources listed at the end of this which might prove useful:

        http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/danks-john-3363
        Last edited by Ausgirl; 01-29-2015, 03:44 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          324 Pitt St, in 1911

          http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page...&searchLimits=

          Though this article says he was contracted by Dank to work in Melbourne:

          http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=


          A noteworthy feature in connection with the Windsor tragedy is the flood of light that is being thrown upon the movements, during the past few years, of the man Deeming, suspected to be the murderer. We know of his career in such widely distant places as England ; Sydney, Bathurst, Melbourne, Rockhampton, Perth, and Adelaide, in Australia ; South Africa, Monte Video, and Aden. In this issue we publish some interesting particulars from Brisbane relating to Deeming's visit to Hull, and his marriage, at Beverley, under the name of Mr. Harry Lawson, with a young Scotch girl. This was in February, 1890. In May, 1890, Miss Steel, of Strathfield, received a letter from a girl friend in Beverley giving a detailed account of the marriage of "Mr. and Mrs. Lawson." This letter has been forwarded to us. Some of the touches in the letter curiously fit descriptions of Deeming sent from other sources. The writer, after some personal matter, goes on to say, " I have no news concerning ourselves to relate, so will give you an account of an event which has caused a great amount of excitement in Beverley. Some time at the latter part of last year, I think in November, a gentleman named Lawson came to Beverley and took lodgings with a Mrs. Matheson, a widow with two daughters. She had a large house on the New Walk, opposite to us. He was a very large sheep-farmer from Aus- tralia on business to this country appointing agents to sell his wool. He was in Hull doing this, and thought that he would like to stop a little while in Bever- ley, so someone recommended Mrs. M.'s lodgings. He took them, and very soon fell in love with the eldest daughter. She was a showy, harum-scarum sort of a girl, had been brought up in Scotland, and educated for a public school mistress, and had spent two years at college in Edinburgh. Owing to changes in the home, she had to give up college and return to Beverley. This gentleman was not very prepossessing in appearance, below the middle height, very round-shouldered, and plain in the face, and certainly looked well turned 40 ; but he looked a great swell when he wore his fur-lined great coat, and had the fronts thrown wide to show the fur.

          =o
          Last edited by Ausgirl; 01-29-2015, 04:18 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I hadn't seen this before....


            . The same year this gentleman forwarded a communication to his friend in Bris- bane, informing him that Deeming was supposed to have sailed for Australia in the Jumna under the name of George, and asking him to have him ar- rested should he correspond with the photograph enclosed with the letter. The captain of the Jumna was communicated with on his arrival at Thursday Island, and he replied that there was no such pas- senger. The captain, however, stated that there were two brothers named Joyce on board, one of whom corresponded with the description sent. A Bris- bane detective went down to Moreton Bay to meet the Jumna and arrest the man Joyce, who was supposed to be identical with George. The captain stated that the Joyces had gone ashore at Rockhampton, but on seeing the photo of Deeming he said it did not correspond with Joyce. But he immediately recognised it as that of a passenger named Levy, who had voyaged by the Jumna from Aden to London on the previous trip There could scarcely be any doubt as to the correctness of this, as Deeming had forwarded to the diamond-fields a letter from Capetown to the effect that a friend of his having died he was to accompany the body as far as Aden, and then re-

            turn to South Africa. The captain described Levy as a man who disposed of money freely during the voyage, who wore lots of jewellery, always wore a dress suit at dinner, and made himself very abnoxious to one of the lady passengers, and had to be severely reprimanded by the captain. At this time Deeming, alias Levy, had a wife and family living at Birkenhead.

            http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/19007687

            Comment


            • #7
              GUT, sorry if you already have all this..

              Mr. J. Prior, of 1 Kerferd-road, Albert park, has an extensive knowledge of Frederick Bayley Deeming, and in an inter- view with a representative of The Argus last night he furnished some details which are of interest. He said that in 1884 Deeming was employed as a plumber in Melbourne by Messrs. John Danks and Sons, of Bourke-street. He was then a married man, with one child, and about 28 years of age. After a twelvemonths' connection, with the firm, Deeming left and went to Sydney, where he entered the service of Messrs. Keating Co. About the end of 1886 he went into business as a plumber and gasfitter on his own account in one of the suburbs, and soon afterwards removed to the city, establishing himself first of all in Lee's-court, off King-street, and then in Phillips-street. There he became much indebted to Mr. Prior, who was carrying on the business as J. Prior and Co. of an importer of plumbers' brassware, and Mr. Prior, failing to collect from him any of the moneys he owed, upbraided him with his extravagance, and his in- dulgence in the luxury of a pony carriage. Deeming cared very little for the dunning of his creditors, and when overtaken by a fire, which burned down his premises, he filed his schedule. This was in December of 1887, and while he was being examined in the Insolvency Court he prevaricated so much respecting a bogus advertisement, which he had caused to be inserted in the press calling upon Frederick Bayley Deeming to present himself and claim an inheritance in Liverpool, that he was sentenced to fourteen days' imprisonment, and spent Christmas of that year in gaol. He was accompanied in his confinement by one of his witnesses, who also failed to give his evidence straightforwardly, and another only narrowly escaped a similar fate. When Deeming had served his term of imprisonment and his examination was proceeded with it was found that he "cooked" his books and accounts in his own favour. Mr. Prior and other creditors were considering the advisability of issuing a warrant for his arrest for fraudulent insolvency when he disappeared, and thenceforward was a stranger to Sydney. He left his wife behind, also his children, but it was understood they followed him to South Africa a little while later.

              http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8406840

              In 1883 he entered the service of Messrs. John Danks and Son, plumbers, of Melbourne, and the same year found him in Rock- hampton (Q.), with Messrs. Williams Bros. He then decided upon striking out on his own account, and he opened a shop in opposition to his late employers ; as it turned out, at Messrs. Danks and Son's ex- pense, for when he gave up business and re- turned to Sydney, his account with that firm stood in debit to the tune of 200. During the whole of 1885 he appeared to have been working with several firms of plumbers in. this city, having taken the precaution to drop the latter portion of his name, in case of accidents. Growing bolder, he again opened business for himself in one of the suburbs, under his proper name, and he subsequently removed to the heart of the town. His business did not prosper, however, and he found his way into the Insolvency Court.

              http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13860833
              Last edited by Ausgirl; 01-29-2015, 10:37 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Ausgirl an interesting character.

                It would have been early in his career but I wonder of FBD had come across Henry Lawson as he seems to have had a habit of taking the names of places he'd lived [Swanston and Drounin spring to mind] or people he'd worked with [Williams for one] as aliases.

                And then his defence Counsel went on to bigger and better?? office.
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I thought I read he was in jail in the UK at the time of one of the 5 murders.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AlanG View Post
                    I thought I read he was in jail in the UK at the time of one of the 5 murders.
                    Ummmmm the article says [though I doubt the truth] that he confessed to two of the Whitechapel murders in 1890, so not the c5.
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      He was apparently in South Africa, but I'm not sure anyone knows exactly where he was that autumn.

                      The man sure got about, though.

                      I am fairly sure -somebody- here would have pinned him down, somewhere during that time, but if so I can't find it.

                      What I see in the vast majority of newspapers from the time of his arrest in Western Australia is that a/ there was a massive amount of confusion as to where he was and when, and b/ that there seems to be something of a gap between July and December, in his activity in South Africa. I've found reference to him in that country in July, and reference to him at the 'end of the year' of 1888, but nothing in between -- except a bunch of sophisticated scams and murders he was blamed for. No exact dates for those, but I think they cover that period.

                      Except, he didn't do any of the murders, as it turns out. And there's some doubt about him doing the scams, as they're a couple levels of sophistication above his usual style.

                      So as far as I know, there's no definites as to where he was at the time. But I could be wrong, of course.

                      Interestingly, he was also known to operate as a part of a group of crooks. Oh, and he admitted to the 'last two' Ripper murders but not the rest -- under what duress, though, I do not know. Plus, he was a Munchhausen-level liar. He does, though, sound a lot like 'Astrakhan Man'. Jewels and gold watch and whatnot. And a fancy, fur-lined coat.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ausgirl View Post
                        He was apparently in South Africa, but I'm not sure anyone knows exactly where he was that autumn.

                        The man sure got about, though.

                        I am fairly sure -somebody- here would have pinned him down, somewhere during that time, but if so I can't find it.

                        What I see in the vast majority of newspapers from the time of his arrest in Western Australia is that a/ there was a massive amount of confusion as to where he was and when, and b/ that there seems to be something of a gap between July and December, in his activity in South Africa. I've found reference to him in that country in July, and reference to him at the 'end of the year' of 1888, but nothing in between -- except a bunch of sophisticated scams and murders he was blamed for. No exact dates for those, but I think they cover that period.

                        Except, he didn't do any of the murders, as it turns out. And there's some doubt about him doing the scams, as they're a couple levels of sophistication above his usual style.

                        So as far as I know, there's no definites as to where he was at the time. But I could be wrong, of course.

                        Interestingly, he was also known to operate as a part of a group of crooks. Oh, and he admitted to the 'last two' Ripper murders but not the rest -- under what duress, though, I do not know. Plus, he was a Munchhausen-level liar. He does, though, sound a lot like 'Astrakhan Man'. Jewels and gold watch and whatnot. And a fancy, fur-lined coat.

                        There doesn't seem to have been any duress, if [and it may be a big if] we believe the press report.

                        There is also the allegedly destroyed biography he wrote in the days leading up to his execution.

                        It appears that it was in the 6 months you mention that his family probably returned to the UK. But his location is just not known with any certainty even the police file and brief for trial have dates crossed out and amended all over the place and one or two that just seem wrong.

                        Re his ability to lie, I think his pants may have got very hot, if you get the drift.

                        I don't think he was Jack, but my oh my he was an interesting character and must have been able to charm the birds out of trees.
                        G U T

                        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, GUT my friend, you have sent me down a rabbit hole of archives!

                          Funny you should mention his skill at telling porky pies.. I was just reading several accounts of people who'd travelled by ship with him, and how insufferable, obnoxious and *transparent* he was to them (mostly ship's crew saying this stuff). Perhaps the crew and a few of the passengers, being well travelled and a bit more 'worldly' than many, were less inclined to be sucked in by his schtick. Or maybe just being in close proximity for the passage did it -- most liars of his calibre (and I have known one or two, unfortunately) do not stand up under sustained, close contact like that, their veneer wears off very quickly and in the case of true compulsive liars, they can't help but contradict themselves.

                          Anyway, he certainly did not fool all of the people all of the time.

                          There's one good reason I don't think he's the Ripper, which does not involve location/time:

                          All of the people we for-sure know he murdered were killed as obstacles to gain. He treated wives and children like costume items for his scams, and disposed of them when they became inconvenient. So right there, he has a very clear pattern of MO, which makes no sense to any of the Ripper murders. Those women literally had nothing from which he might have materially gained, that I can imagine.

                          Also, I believe he was highly organised as far as where he was going and what he planned to do, even to the disposal of his wives, he was operating several moves ahead most of the time. This also doesn't come across as particularly Ripper-esque behaviour to me.

                          HOWEVER! hehehe. There's a couple of things that make me wonder, the least of which is him fitting Hutchinson's description to a T:

                          Deeming (aka 20 or so known aliases) was said to have been oddly close to his mum, who passed when he was 20 (iirc) leaving him utterly devastated. Yet, he could not wait to get out of home at 16 and promptly went to sea, meaning he'd be away from Mummy Dearest for months on end. So if all that is true, I'd be looking at issues with dad - and lo and behold, dad's got some major issues. Though one of the brothers utterly denied it all, the other one and his wife confirmed that Dad had some pretty severe mental issues. I'd love to know how the mother died.

                          His family also stated that Deeming had a 'brain fever' when young, and was not the same after. This sounds not too far-fetched. And of course, he iwas confirmed to have contracted syphilis, by the time he was arrested...

                          Syphilis, from whom? A prostitute, he said, openly wishing them all dead.
                          How advanced was it, by the time he was arrested?
                          All of the victims but Stride were plumpish and dark haired, some facially not dissimilar. Made me wonder what Deeming's Mum looked like. Then there's the whole womb-obsession, Tabram's breast and vaginal mutilations, the stabbed and cut throats..familial overkill, very murder by transferance.

                          He was heard talking to his dead mum around the time of his trial, and said she was the one who told him to kill. This was (probably rightly) seen as a feeble attempt to escape the hangman. Yet, his family said he'd been known to have visions of his mother years before. Maybe they were just trying to help him. But maybe it was true.

                          Perhaps there was a whole 'nother agenda going on with him? He had absolutely NO aversion to killing. What if the syphilis triggered some kind of deep, Oedipal love/hate type of psychosis, on top of him already being a complete homicidal psychopath in the clinical sense of the word? And he's kind of amalgamated Mummy issues with the bishes that gave him syphilis and ruined his manhood?

                          He was brilliant at disguises/personas and could change his entire look and demeanor quite easily - an example of his chameleon nature is when he plucked and scraped his moustache off right before (iirc) he was to be viewed by some witnesses -- which peeved the cops right off, as he looked like an entirely different person. So he could have gotten about Whitechapel extremely easily as several different people, without doing more than changing his hat & coat and perhaps having a shave.

                          I'm just waiting for someone to happen along and squish me like a bug with their giant fact-thumb. In the meantime, it's interesting to speculate on.
                          Last edited by Ausgirl; 01-29-2015, 04:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ausgirl View Post
                            Well, GUT my friend, you have sent me down a rabbit hole of archives!
                            Isn't it fun?

                            Funny you should mention his skill at telling porky pies.. I was just reading several accounts of people who'd travelled by ship with him, and how insufferable, obnoxious and *transparent* he was to them (mostly ship's crew saying this stuff). Perhaps the crew and a few of the passengers, being well travelled and a bit more 'worldly' than many, were less inclined to be sucked in by his schtick. Or maybe just being in close proximity for the passage did it -- most liars of his calibre (and I have known one or two, unfortunately) do not stand up under sustained, close contact like that, their veneer wears off very quickly and in the case of true compulsive liars, they can't help but contradict themselves.

                            Or did they only see through him with 20:20 hindsight?

                            Anyway, he certainly did not fool all of the people all of the time.

                            There's one good reason I don't think he's the Ripper, which does not involve location/time:
                            All of the people we for-sure know he murdered were killed as obstacles to gain. He treated wives and children like costume items for his scams, and disposed of them when they became inconvenient. So right there, he has a very clear pattern of MO, which makes no sense to any of the Ripper murders. Those women literally had nothing from which he might have materially gained, that I can imagine.
                            That is one of the puzzles about Deeming, most killers in his mold [if there is a mold] appear to do it for $$$, [ie insurance rich wife etc] Deeming appears to have gained nought from his killings in that regard.

                            Also, I believe he was highly organised as far as where he was going and what he planned to do, even to the disposal of his wives, he was operating several moves ahead most of the time. This also doesn't come across as particularly Ripper-esque behaviour to me.
                            Even down to pre ordering his concrete, in one case in the new girlfriends name, he certainly appears to have been a planner.

                            HOWEVER! hehehe. There's a couple of things that make me wonder, the least of which is him fitting Hutchinson's description to a T:
                            Strange isn't it how close he fits A-Man.

                            Deeming (aka 20 or so known aliases) was said to have been oddly close to his mum, who passed when he was 20 (iirc) leaving him utterly devastated. Yet, he could not wait to get out of home at 16 and promptly went to sea, meaning he'd be away from Mummy Dearest for months on end. So if all that is true, I'd be looking at issues with dad - and lo and behold, dad's got some major issues. Though one of the brothers utterly denied it all, the other one and his wife confirmed that Dad had some pretty severe mental issues. I'd love to know how the mother died.
                            I think daddy and mummy may have both been a touch strange.

                            His family also stated that Deeming had a 'brain fever' when young, and was not the same after. This sounds not too far-fetched. And of course, he iwas confirmed to have contracted syphilis, by the time he was arrested...
                            He also showed signs of epilepsy. Especially when it suited him.


                            Syphilis, from whom? A prostitute, he said, openly wishing them all dead.
                            How advanced was it, by the time he was arrested?
                            All of the victims but Stride were plumpish and dark haired, some facially not dissimilar. Made me wonder what deeming's Mum looked like. Then there's the whole womb-obsession, Tabram's breast and vaginal mutilations, the throat wounds..

                            He was heard talking to his dead mum around the time of his trial, and said she'd ben the one who told him to kill.. and this was (probably rightly) seen as a feeble attempt to escape the hangman. Yet, his family said he'd been known to have visions of his mother years before. Maybe they were just trying to help him. But maybe it was true.
                            He said his mother visited him at 2:00 am each morning.

                            Interesting that the Vic Govt refused to allow his brain to be examined after the execution, various doctors wanted to do so, some say it wasn't allowed as an abnormality, if found, would cast doubt on the rightness of his execution.

                            Perhaps there was a whole 'nother agenda going on with him? He had absolutely NO aversion to killing, already. What if the syphilis triggered some kind of deep, Oedipal love/hate type of psychosis, on top of him already being a complete homicidal psychopath in the clinical sense of the word? And he's kind of amalgamated Mummy issues with the bishes that gave him syphilis and ruined his manhood?
                            He was brilliant at disguises/personas and could change his entire look and demeanor quite easily - an example of his chameleon nature is when he plucked and scraped his moustache off right before (iirc) he was to be viewed by some witnesses -- which peeved the cops right off, as he looked like an entirely different person. So he could have gotten about Whitechapel extremely easily as several different people, without doing more than changing his hat & coat and perhaps having a shave.

                            He used a broken bit of glass to shave it off, I can't imagine hm even being able to get hold of a broken bit of glass in the same situation today.


                            I'm just waiting for someone to happen along and squish me like a bug with their giant fact-thumb. In the meantime, it's interesting to speculate on.
                            I find him an almost irresistible study, perhaps in part because Grandad's big brother worked for the Williams family some years later, or perhaps just because he is such an interesting character.
                            G U T

                            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              He was an interesting character, and I love reading about him. Complete show-off, though. No blending quietly into the background for Deeming! That was great for him as a showman/conman, not so good if you're trying to conceal your identity after murder.

                              I just don't think he's Jack for a lot of reasons but primarily, I don't think Deeming would be able to keep his mouth shut if he had committed so famous a series of crimes. There'd be deep, dark hints to someone, in the course of his life afterwards and that would be it!

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