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  • DEEMING = DRUIN or DREWEN

    G'day

    I have a real interest in Frederick Deeming.

    NO I do not for one second think that he was Jack the Ripper.

    In 1959 Dan Farson states that he was contacted by a Mr Knowles in Australia, telling him about a pamphlet entitled "The East End Murderer -- I knew him." by Lionel Druitt, Drewett or Drewery. I guess most of us are familiar with this story. Unfortunately the letter from Mr Knowles was lost so we don't know if it actaully said "Lionel" if so that is of itself interesting, because Montague's cousin Lionel lived in Dandanong, Wagga and Tasmania.

    We are also familiar with Dan Farson's research into this document and the conclusion he reached which in essence was that it was about Deeming who Dan said had been known, at one time as Druin or Drewen shortly after arriving in Australia in 1891. Now one can understand a mistake between Druitt and Druin or Drewen.

    Now this all, together with an interest in Deeming that stems from other issues, lead me to read every newspaper report, and Court document that I can find in relation to him. My first question was did he ever adopt an alias such as Druin or Drewen?

    I managed to establish that he certainly used many aliases. A report in 1892, says that Deeming told Dr Springthorpe, a psychiatrist assessing him
    for an insanity plea that he had used about fourteen aliases.

    The closest I can find is a hard to find report that soon after his arrival in Melbourne he used an alias "DRONIN", but can it easlily be mistaken for Druitt, Druin or Drewen?

    I have found for anyone interested the following other aliases he adopted:

    FREDERICK DEEMING
    HARRY LAWSON
    ALBERT WILLIAMS
    BARON SWANSTON or SWANSON
    FREDERICK BAYLEY
    JOHN TAYLOR
    LORD HARRY DUNN
    WARD
    WILSON
    LEVEY
    DRONIN


    I would love to hear any comments on the similarity ot otherwise between Dronin and Druitt as well as if anyone knows of any other aliases Frederick Deeming may have used.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

  • #2
    Originally posted by GUT View Post
    G'day

    I have a real interest in Frederick Deeming.

    NO I do not for one second think that he was Jack the Ripper.

    In 1959 Dan Farson states that he was contacted by a Mr Knowles in Australia, telling him about a pamphlet entitled "The East End Murderer -- I knew him." by Lionel Druitt, Drewett or Drewery. I guess most of us are familiar with this story. Unfortunately the letter from Mr Knowles was lost so we don't know if it actaully said "Lionel" if so that is of itself interesting, because Montague's cousin Lionel lived in Dandanong, Wagga and Tasmania.

    We are also familiar with Dan Farson's research into this document and the conclusion he reached which in essence was that it was about Deeming who Dan said had been known, at one time as Druin or Drewen shortly after arriving in Australia in 1891. Now one can understand a mistake between Druitt and Druin or Drewen.

    Now this all, together with an interest in Deeming that stems from other issues, lead me to read every newspaper report, and Court document that I can find in relation to him. My first question was did he ever adopt an alias such as Druin or Drewen?

    I managed to establish that he certainly used many aliases. A report in 1892, says that Deeming told Dr Springthorpe, a psychiatrist assessing him
    for an insanity plea that he had used about fourteen aliases.

    The closest I can find is a hard to find report that soon after his arrival in Melbourne he used an alias "DRONIN", but can it easlily be mistaken for Druitt, Druin or Drewen?

    I have found for anyone interested the following other aliases he adopted:

    FREDERICK DEEMING
    HARRY LAWSON
    ALBERT WILLIAMS
    BARON SWANSTON or SWANSON
    FREDERICK BAYLEY
    JOHN TAYLOR
    LORD HARRY DUNN
    WARD
    WILSON
    LEVEY
    DRONIN


    I would love to hear any comments on the similarity ot otherwise between Dronin and Druitt as well as if anyone knows of any other aliases Frederick Deeming may have used.
    Hi Gut,

    I wrote an early essay in the journal "Medicine, Science" and the Law" called, "The Original Suspect" regarding what the probable theory (as I thought of it) was for Deeming as "Jack the Ripper", suggesting that he was (at best connected with the "Double header" murders of September 30, 1888.
    But I also added that when one put the information regarding Deeming together it was not a very strong theory.

    I had noticed that he used the names "Dronin" and "Drewen" as alias, as well as "Baron Swanston". It is curious (since the two "D" names, especially "Drewen" remind one of "Druitt", but they don't really add up to much on their own. I never found anything suggesting Deeming knew Druitt or passed through Wimborne at any time (not that I found anything that he did not either). At least one of the aliases suggests a dark joke ("Lord Harry Dunn" suggesting he is a con-man because of the name "Dunn").

    Still I am curious about what you have been finding about Deeming. Are you planning on writing it up?

    Comment


    • #3
      G'day Mayerling

      Can you point me to any source for the Drewen, that's the one I can't find in any records in either Australia or the UK.

      I am thinking of writing something up when I get the time.


      As I sad I do not think that he was the ripper, indeed his Australia Lawyer stated that Deeming was in prison in South Africa during Autumn 1888.

      Thanks for the reply.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

      Comment


      • #4
        Morning Gut.

        I will try to find a copy of the essay to see what I have. There are problems with the itinerary of Frederick Deeming in 1888, and he was in England on certain dates but not on others. I will get back to you whenI have found the essay.

        Jeff

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Jeff
          G U T

          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

          Comment


          • #6
            I should add that as far as I can find Deeming only used the name Dronin for a short period when he first arrived in Melbourne.
            Last edited by GUT; 03-10-2014, 01:16 AM.
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • #7
              I have 'The Scarlet Thread' by Maurice Gurvich and Christopher Wray, the story of Deeming's life in Australia in 1892.

              Deeming rented a cottage in Andrew St Windsor soon after arrival in Melbourne. After paying the first week's rent to John Stamford, the owner, Deeming paid four weeks rent to Charles Connop, Stamford's agent. The name recorded in Connop's rent receipt book is 'Drewn'. In some newspaper reports it is written as Drouin.

              However the police recorded the name Drewn and it is also shown on court records. At the Inquest on Emily Mather in Melbourne in April 1892 Stamford and Connop both identified Deeming as Drewn.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GUT View Post

                The closest I can find is a hard to find report that soon after his arrival in Melbourne he used an alias "DRONIN", but can it easlily be mistaken for Druitt, Druin or Drewen?

                I have found for anyone interested the following other aliases he adopted:

                FREDERICK DEEMING
                HARRY LAWSON
                ALBERT WILLIAMS
                BARON SWANSTON or SWANSON
                FREDERICK BAYLEY
                JOHN TAYLOR
                LORD HARRY DUNN
                WARD
                WILSON
                LEVEY
                DRONIN
                I've found a few more names he used:

                Mollett [in Rockhampton]
                George ??? [on Jumna travelling to Sydney]
                Duncan [at Cathedral Hotel Melbourne]


                Regardless he was an interesting character.
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GUT View Post
                  In 1959 Dan Farson states that he was contacted by a Mr Knowles in Australia, telling him about a pamphlet entitled "The East End Murderer -- I knew him." by Lionel Druitt, Drewett or Drewery. I guess most of us are familiar with this story. Unfortunately the letter from Mr Knowles was lost so we don't know if it actaully said "Lionel" if so that is of itself interesting, because Montague's cousin Lionel lived in Dandanong, Wagga and Tasmania.

                  We are also familiar with Dan Farson's research into this document and the conclusion he reached which in essence was that it was about Deeming who Dan said had been known, at one time as Druin or Drewen shortly after arriving in Australia in 1891. Now one can understand a mistake between Druitt and Druin or Drewen.
                  Forgive me for nit-picking, but Farson seems to have been under the impression that the mysterious Mr Knowles wrote from England. And I think he remained convinced that Knowles's letter had referred to Druitt. The "Drewen" explanation came from Howells and Skinner, in "Ripper Legacy".

                  John Ruffels and I did our best to make sense of the evidence in an article entitled "Dandenong Revisited" in Ripperologist 127. I still feel the likeliest explanation is simply that Farson's notes referred to "Deeming" and that he misread them as "Drewery".
                  http://www.ripperologist.biz/backissues/121-139.zip

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chris View Post
                    Forgive me for nit-picking, but Farson seems to have been under the impression that the mysterious Mr Knowles wrote from England. And I think he remained convinced that Knowles's letter had referred to Druitt. The "Drewen" explanation came from Howells and Skinner, in "Ripper Legacy".

                    John Ruffels and I did our best to make sense of the evidence in an article entitled "Dandenong Revisited" in Ripperologist 127. I still feel the likeliest explanation is simply that Farson's notes referred to "Deeming" and that he misread them as "Drewery".
                    http://www.ripperologist.biz/backissues/121-139.zip
                    Thanks Chris, I had read your article and found it most informative.

                    What I hace a little trouble with is reconciling "I still feel the likeliest explanation is simply that Farson's notes referred to "Deeming" and that he misread them as "Drewery"." with "And I think he remained convinced that Knowles's letter had referred to Druitt.".

                    But perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GUT View Post
                      What I hace a little trouble with is reconciling "I still feel the likeliest explanation is simply that Farson's notes referred to "Deeming" and that he misread them as "Drewery"." with "And I think he remained convinced that Knowles's letter had referred to Druitt.".

                      But perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
                      I just think he convinced himself that the letter had referred to Druitt, but in reality it had referred to Deeming, and he just couldn't read his own handwriting.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chris View Post
                        I just think he convinced himself that the letter had referred to Druitt, but in reality it had referred to Deeming, and he just couldn't read his own handwriting.

                        G'day Chris

                        Thanks for clarrifying that.


                        Mmmmm not being able to read your own handwriting he must be related to me.
                        G U T

                        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GUT View Post
                          G'day Chris

                          Thanks for clarrifying that.


                          Mmmmm not being able to read your own handwriting he must be related to me.
                          Bit of a side issue GUT but you might be amused to think about it.

                          In his last series of Sherlock Holmes short stories, "The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes", Sir Arthur Conan Doyle included "The Adventure of the Mazarin Stone". It's about the stealing of a crown jewel by one "Count Negretto Sylvius".

                          Most critics of Doyle agree that "The Mazarin Stone" is not a good Holmes story, but it is interesting. Instead of the 57 told by Watson, or the 2 told by Holmes, it is the only one written in third person - we don't know who is telling it. Watson only pops at the start, and it repeats (in it's plot) a variation on what was used in a better short story from the collection "The Return of Sherlock Holmes" called "The Adventure of the Empty House". The variation deals with a bust in the "Empty House" and here with a wax statue of Holmes.

                          The reason for the similarity is that Doyle had written, and produced, a one act Holmes play, "The Crown Diamond" in 1921. It had a similar plot to "The Mazarin Stone" but the villain's name was different. It was "Colonel Sebastian Moran", who is the villain in "The Adventure of the Empty House".

                          Colonel Moran is the right hand man of Professor Moriarty, and in "The Empty House" he tries to kill Holmes with an air rifle (concealed in his walking stick) from across the street from 221 B Baker Street (where Holmes resides). But he's caught after he fires at what he thinks is Holmes' head, but is actually a bust being moved carefully to look like a human's shadow.

                          When Moran is arrested, Holmes explains to Insp. Lestrade that Moran is the murderer of a young socialite named "the Honorable Ronald Adair", who was killed in an apparently impregnable room with a similar bullet to the air rifle Moran used here. Adair's father, Watson tells us in "the Empty House" is the Earl of Maynooth, a former governor to one of the Australian colonies.

                          In 'The Mazarin Stone", Sylvius is taunted at one point for threatening Holmes, and is reminded that "Col. Sebastian Moran" has been known to say the same thing from time to time. But Holmes mentions that his own type of theatricality has been noted by opponents, "What the stage lost the law gained," Old Baron Dowson told me [Holmes says] the night before he was hanged!"

                          Given the odd, convoluted way Conan Doyle's mind absorbed information and redirected or mixed it in his stories, I have often wondered that since Sylvius and Moran were two villains playing the same role in two pieces of fiction about a jewel robbery, and since Moran (in his first appearance in a story) murdered the son of a former governor of an Australian (pre-1900) colony, the reference in the "Mazarin Stone" to old Baron Dowson was somehow suggested by vague memories of that "Baron Swanson" alias used by Deeming in the early 1890s ("The Adventure of the Empty House" is dated in April 1894, two years after Deeming's execution). To compound such a possibility, Deeming was executed at the gaol on Swanson Street in Melbourne.

                          Hope this was amusing to follow. Don't know how real this all is, but it is amusing.

                          Jeff

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Rhanks for that Jeff.

                            Just one small correction Old Melbourne Gaol where both Deeming and Ned Kelly handed was in Russell Street not Swanston street. There were 133 hangings there in it's time in operation.

                            He lived in Swanston Street at one stage.

                            But an interesting thought all the same, and Doyle did appear to draw inspiration from things in real life, as I think do most authors.
                            Last edited by GUT; 02-10-2015, 01:02 PM.
                            G U T

                            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As a slight aside, there have been investigations into a skull with some claiming it was Deeming's some Kelly's, boy the death masks are similar.
                              G U T

                              There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                              Comment

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