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Cutbush - Too Easily Dismissed As A Suspect?

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  • #31
    I’m not at home at the moment so I don’t have any books with me Mac so I could be misremembering but I can’t recall any mention of Cutbush being a drinker.
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes

    “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post
      He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.
      fair enough a well reasoned post.

      I would just ad re Bury, he actually has a similar SIG (post mortem mutilation of the mid section)as the ripper. and as you know the sig is not as flexible as MO with serial killers.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post
        He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.
        Also, include William Waddle in Durham as another Ripper-inspired copycat.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          fair enough a well reasoned post.

          I would just ad re Bury, he actually has a similar SIG (post mortem mutilation of the mid section)as the ripper. and as you know the sig is not as flexible as MO with serial killers.
          you know i like to get my say in on Bury and I think Mac T's certain assessment that Bury 'exhibited the same [copycat] behaviour' is, well, ridiculous. It is no light thing to just brush off Bury when you take everything into account. It makes me think, just how high do most people want to set the bar to have a credible or even very likely suspect? i'm sure most people know the main points but a quick recap might be worthwhile
          • the main point being, as you said, the signature similarity of a series of incisions dividing the muscles and running obliquely down to the genitals. the following similarity in particular, is hard to just brush away as nothing, as most do:
            • Ellen: ‘On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perineum, and dividing the sphincter muscle’
            • Eddowes: ‘The incision went down the right side of the vagina and rectum for half an inch behind the rectum'
          • of course we know he did other things that are similar or have been suggested for the C5, those being:
            • blow to the head
            • strangulation
            • murder in the early hours of the morning ~2 am i think the neighbours heard screams
            • victim found wearing only a chemise
            • he burnt her clothes in the fire
            • if we include the tabram there is also is use of penknives
            • chalk messages in a vertical block structure, said to be in a good school boy hand, with spelling and grammar errors
            • use of prostitutes
          • and of course Bury isn't some random that turned up in dundee without a connection to whitechapel. we have:
            • location in Bow, travelled in out of whitechapel for sell sawdust and drink. several accounts of him assaulting ellen in whitechapel throughout 1888
            • police discovered he had behaved like a madman when he returned home later in the day on the day chapman was killed. they could not account for his whereabouts (missing from home) for some of the murders
          • in 1891 the belief still held in Scotland that bury was the ripper: 'July 4, 1891 issue of the Dundee Courier: “the Dundee authorities are still of the opinion that the William Henry Bury who died in Dundee at the hands of the common hangman was no other than the much spoken of ‘Jack-the-Ripper’” (from bury website)
          • some very plausible handwriting similarities between some of the main ripper letters, which should be considered alongside the fact that bury was said to be able to write in several different hands
          • what do some serial killers do when the heat is on: a runner. and we have bury inventing a pair of jobs in dundee, forging the job offer letter and leaving. and there are no further whitechapel murders that are unanimously believed to be the ripper.
          • finally, not liked by many, but there is an extremely close match, practically point for point, between bury and type of man the fbi believed was the ripper
          so, if this man is dismissed out of hand, just how high is the bar set? it may never be proved but i find it irresistible that bury was the ripper. i mean, compare the above against what we know of every other suspect. cutbush may be interesting but it is not even a borderline close comparison.

          and back to herlock's good post on cutbush himslef

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

            you know i like to get my say in on Bury and I think Mac T's certain assessment that Bury 'exhibited the same [copycat] behaviour' is, well, ridiculous. It is no light thing to just brush off Bury when you take everything into account. It makes me think, just how high do most people want to set the bar to have a credible or even very likely suspect? i'm sure most people know the main points but a quick recap might be worthwhile
            • the main point being, as you said, the signature similarity of a series of incisions dividing the muscles and running obliquely down to the genitals. the following similarity in particular, is hard to just brush away as nothing, as most do:
              • Ellen: ‘On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perineum, and dividing the sphincter muscle’
              • Eddowes: ‘The incision went down the right side of the vagina and rectum for half an inch behind the rectum'
            • of course we know he did other things that are similar or have been suggested for the C5, those being:
              • blow to the head
              • strangulation
              • murder in the early hours of the morning ~2 am i think the neighbours heard screams
              • victim found wearing only a chemise
              • he burnt her clothes in the fire
              • if we include the tabram there is also is use of penknives
              • chalk messages in a vertical block structure, said to be in a good school boy hand, with spelling and grammar errors
              • use of prostitutes
            • and of course Bury isn't some random that turned up in dundee without a connection to whitechapel. we have:
              • location in Bow, travelled in out of whitechapel for sell sawdust and drink. several accounts of him assaulting ellen in whitechapel throughout 1888
              • police discovered he had behaved like a madman when he returned home later in the day on the day chapman was killed. they could not account for his whereabouts (missing from home) for some of the murders
            • in 1891 the belief still held in Scotland that bury was the ripper: 'July 4, 1891 issue of the Dundee Courier: “the Dundee authorities are still of the opinion that the William Henry Bury who died in Dundee at the hands of the common hangman was no other than the much spoken of ‘Jack-the-Ripper’” (from bury website)
            • some very plausible handwriting similarities between some of the main ripper letters, which should be considered alongside the fact that bury was said to be able to write in several different hands
            • what do some serial killers do when the heat is on: a runner. and we have bury inventing a pair of jobs in dundee, forging the job offer letter and leaving. and there are no further whitechapel murders that are unanimously believed to be the ripper.
            • finally, not liked by many, but there is an extremely close match, practically point for point, between bury and type of man the fbi believed was the ripper
            so, if this man is dismissed out of hand, just how high is the bar set? it may never be proved but i find it irresistible that bury was the ripper. i mean, compare the above against what we know of every other suspect. cutbush may be interesting but it is not even a borderline close comparison.

            and back to herlock's good post on cutbush himslef
            Bury killed his wife then presented himself to the cops all delusional. Jack killed strangers and stayed hidden. Also who cares what Scotland or Dundee thinks about it? It can be argued that they're just doing the Loch Ness Monster dance to gain notoriety and tourism money.
            Another point, it is possible he wrote JTR letters but so what? A lot of nutters were writing letters. Doesn't make them the ripper.
            I will agree however Bury has more going for him than Cutbush evidence wise. But stick to your instincts, you may be right. I'll stick to mine as well.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              I’m not at home at the moment so I don’t have any books with me Mac so I could be misremembering but I can’t recall any mention of Cutbush being a drinker.
              Call it a hunch. Some people are perfect angels sober but when drunk they do a Jekell and Hyde and split personalities. It's also hard to tell if they are drunk because they may be educated and be able to not slur or give an outward appearance of drunkenness. I am one of those people except I don't murder people when pissed, I get drunk and disorderly and scream at cops and their mothers. Thankfully I live in a high crime city so when I sober up they dismiss the charge.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post

                Bury killed his wife then presented himself to the cops all delusional.
                That's not correct though. He calmly walked into the police station and said his wife had killed herself and attempted to talk his way out of it, and it almost worked. There is no evidence he was delusional or unstable. He apparently spent his time in prison writing a memoir of his early life. He had lived with the body for 5 or 6 days and had obviously given it some thought. If he left, everyone knew he had arrived from the east end and would have been committed to a life on the run and I suspect he would ultimately have been tracked down. It may seem odd but I can see how he thought he was playing the best option. Also I think it is a blind alley to pin your theories on lines that Jtr would have definitely done this or done that, and acted this way or that and not like this. we see this with BS man and stride - i recall one poster saying no, JtR defo wouldn't have done that.

                i will say, show me a more convincing and likely suspect? there isn't one.

                police and tourist money? come on that's just daft.

                i suggest any further discussion is posted across to one of the bury threads.
                Last edited by Aethelwulf; 08-24-2022, 07:25 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                  That's not correct though. He calmly walked into the police station and said his wife had killed herself and attempted to talk his way out of it, and it almost worked. There is no evidence he was delusional or unstable. He apparently spent his time in prison writing a memoir of his early life. He had lived with the body for 5 or 6 days and had obviously given it some thought. If he left, everyone knew he had arrived from the east end and would have been committed to a life on the run and I suspect he would ultimately have been tracked down. It may seem odd but I can see how he thought he was playing the best option. Also I think it is a blind alley to pin your theories on lines that Jtr would have definitely done this or done that, and acted this way or that and not like this. we see this with BS man and stride - i recall one poster saying no, JtR defo wouldn't have done that.

                  i will say, show me a more convincing and likely suspect? there isn't one.

                  police and tourist money? come on that's just daft.

                  i suggest any further discussion is posted across to one of the bury threads.
                  No need to go to another thread as I am drawing comparisons between who I perceive as copycats. Cutbush and Bury. Someone else brought up Jane Beadmores killer. I believe the press influenced these copycats as it does to this day. They have gone from being cosigned to oblivion like any average Joe to being attached to an infamous serial killer. It's that simple for me. And I've never dismissed Bury "out of hand " I looked into him and found him lacking. Doesn't mean I'm right. He just doesn't feel right for me. And if you want to know whom I think are better suspects, they're on my profile.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post

                    I looked into him and found him lacking.
                    this is one of the points I was making. look at what we know about bury, the points I posted, if he is lacking then i believe this case can never be solved. by that i mean we probably know most of the main points about the main suspects. none of them are proven post mortem mutilators, if they were i think we'd know by now. is it likely a new suspect will turn up like bury, i seriously doubt it. as i said, i think dismissing bury means the bar is set impossibly high. also the copy cat theory obviously falls flat for bury, because what would a copycat do without fail - cut her throat. we know he thought about it (see below) but ultimately it was the incisions of the lower body that were his fantasy. the method of killing was by the by the by.

                    in a case as unusual as this, who are we looking for - someone with form for the same who was there at the time. there is only bury.

                    the happy couple in the honeymoon period only a week after their wedding:

                    She screamed for help and I went into their room I found him kneeling on her in bed, he had a table knife in his right-hand, and was apparently about to cut her throat

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