Bury's move to Dundee

[Abby Normal]

I think something else worth considering about Bury's actions in Dundee is they show he was actually capable of incredible emotional detachment on the scale needed to carry out the Whitechapel crimes. None of this 'well Lechmere was a true psycho (but we have no evidence BS)'.

If you think about the Kelly crime scene and the type of person that could have done that, we're talking about someone with the most disturbing and profound lack of emotion. Now think about what Bury did in Dundee. He hits his wife around the head with something like a poker, strangles her, cuts her stomach so a foot of intestine is hanging out, mutilates her genitals, smashes the body into a box, breaking a leg in the process, lives with the body four days and apparently puts a cloth over the box to use it as a table to play cards. If that wasn't bad enough, the real psycho alarm bell is sounded by the fact that the doctors could tell from the wounds that at some point after the initial act, he had gone back to the body and made two further incisions. IF Bury wasn't the man inside Kelly's room, IMO he is not on the current suspect list and we will probably never know who he was.

good post wulf
and as wiggins also pointed out the similarity of the burned clothes in both cases.

[Ms Diddles]

Sounds a bit too chilly for my liking, Ms D. I prefer the climate here in Devon.

But I suppose I'd survive with a cocktail or three to keep me warm.

Cheers!

Love,

Caz
X

Chin chin, , Caz!

The climate up here in Scotland is indeed pretty awful.

We were fortunate with our trip to Dundee and got a lovely, sunny, warm day though.

We were sinking some Aperol Spritz and Negronis in the sun and pretending we were in Florence!

[caz]

I went on a day trip to Dundee yesterday.

Above is 43 Union St where Bury and Elland roomed for a short period of time on arrival in Dundee.

IIRC they had rooms on the third floor.

I only had limited time as wanted to check outthe Discovery and drink cocktails, but Union St really retains some of the old atmosphere.

Princes St is completely different.

Thumbs up for Dundee as a day trip destination.

Sounds a bit too chilly for my liking, Ms D. I prefer the climate here in Devon.

But I suppose I'd survive with a cocktail or three to keep me warm.

Cheers!

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz
I have to disagree with you. If Bury had have extracted any of Ellen's organs he would have been hung as the Ripper. As things stand he nearly got away with Ellen's murder.

Cheers John

You are probably right, John, but a good lawyer might just have been able to swing it [excuse the pun!] that the man was hopelessly insane and unfit to plead.

Oh, and I think you meant 'hanged', not hung.

Unless he was well endowed.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ms Diddles]

I went on a day trip to Dundee yesterday.

Above is 43 Union St where Bury and Elland roomed for a short period of time on arrival in Dundee.

IIRC they had rooms on the third floor.

I only had limited time as wanted to check outthe Discovery and drink cocktails, but Union St really retains some of the old atmosphere.

Princes St is completely different.

Thumbs up for Dundee as a day trip destination.

[Ms Diddles]

[John Wheat]

While Bury remains, for me, a far stronger suspect than most, I'm still not convinced that he would have been interested in mutilating and extracting body parts from complete strangers encountered on the streets.

The murder of Ellen was much more personal: he considered her, and her money, to be his property, to do whatever he liked with. If he had removed her uterus, for example, to keep as a reminder of his ultimate power over her - as we know JtR would have been more than capable of - I might have said "case closed", although my gut feeling is that the ripper was not done yet in early 1889, and probably went on to murder others, including Alice McKenzie and possibly Frances Coles.

I realise that Bury could hardly have denied killing Ellen if any organs had been extracted, but he'd have had a jolly decent case for being of unsound mind and unfit to plead, sparing him the gallows.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
I have to disagree with you. If Bury had have extracted any of Ellen's organs he would have been hung as the Ripper. As things stand he nearly got away with Ellen's murder.

Cheers John

[caz]

While Bury remains, for me, a far stronger suspect than most, I'm still not convinced that he would have been interested in mutilating and extracting body parts from complete strangers encountered on the streets.

The murder of Ellen was much more personal: he considered her, and her money, to be his property, to do whatever he liked with. If he had removed her uterus, for example, to keep as a reminder of his ultimate power over her - as we know JtR would have been more than capable of - I might have said "case closed", although my gut feeling is that the ripper was not done yet in early 1889, and probably went on to murder others, including Alice McKenzie and possibly Frances Coles.

I realise that Bury could hardly have denied killing Ellen if any organs had been extracted, but he'd have had a jolly decent case for being of unsound mind and unfit to plead, sparing him the gallows.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Wiggins

I have to disagree with you about the degrading position. I think Bury just stuffed Ellens body into the box.

Cheers John

That's how I see it too, John.

I've always thought that arguments postulating that the body was posed whilst stuck in the trunk were rather unconvincing.

I see Bury as just carelessly shoving her into the box.

Perhaps by the time he was putting her in the box, rigor mortis had set in, so it was necessary to break limbs etc to fit her in.

Well I don't really have an opinion on that particular point, I just mentioned what others have argued as it's relevent to Wulf mention of the crime scene,

And they made a good argument, and they argue it because it's another link to Jack the Ripper, being one of his peculiar behaviours, to leave his victims in a degraded position and generate shock when discovered.

but besides that there is much commonalitys

I do think the burning of the clothes and how Ellen was found on in a chemise to be telling.
Of course i think the mutilations are significant how the cuts are jagged at the bottom reminds us of Nichols, and Wulf as you said there are specific cuts that mirror those on Eddowes,
Also I put more significance in the chalk graffiti than many others as reading the contemporary accounts the police considered the gsg to be genuine ripper.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wiggins

I have to disagree with you about the degrading position. I think Bury just stuffed Ellens body into the box.

Cheers John

On balance, I'm with Wiggins on this one. He could have just curled her up in a fetal position and placed her in there. Instead he has her legs bent around and broken in a totally unnecessary way. I don't agree with the posed argument, but I do say what he did was another mark of his total lack of emotion. One other thing about the box - when the police went to look it was all nailed up apart from the top middle plank, which was there but not nailed down. Was that so he could get some perverse gratification from keeping an eye on his handiwork?

[John Wheat]

Yes well put and either you or others mentioned before the degrading position she was left in does relate to the ripper murders.

And she was left with just a chemise, and her clothes were burnt and we see that with Kelly.

Odd things by themselves but taken together you have similar behaviour patterns which further put him apart from the other suspects

Hi Wiggins

I have to disagree with you about the degrading position. I think Bury just stuffed Ellens body into the box.

Cheers John

Yes well put and either you or others mentioned before the degrading position she was left in does relate to the ripper murders.

And she was left with just a chemise, and her clothes were burnt and we see that with Kelly.

Odd things by themselves but taken together you have similar behaviour patterns which further put him apart from the other suspects

[Aethelwulf]

It's a fair observation, Aethelwulf, and a reasonable question to ask - for which I have no brilliant riposte - damn it.

Love,

Caz
X

I think something else worth considering about Bury's actions in Dundee is they show he was actually capable of incredible emotional detachment on the scale needed to carry out the Whitechapel crimes. None of this 'well Lechmere was a true psycho (but we have no evidence BS)'.

If you think about the Kelly crime scene and the type of person that could have done that, we're talking about someone with the most disturbing and profound lack of emotion. Now think about what Bury did in Dundee. He hits his wife around the head with something like a poker, strangles her, cuts her stomach so a foot of intestine is hanging out, mutilates her genitals, smashes the body into a box, breaking a leg in the process, lives with the body four days and apparently puts a cloth over the box to use it as a table to play cards. If that wasn't bad enough, the real psycho alarm bell is sounded by the fact that the doctors could tell from the wounds that at some point after the initial act, he had gone back to the body and made two further incisions. IF Bury wasn't the man inside Kelly's room, IMO he is not on the current suspect list and we will probably never know who he was.

[caz]

It's a fair observation, Aethelwulf, and a reasonable question to ask - for which I have no brilliant riposte - damn it.

Love,

Caz
X