William Bury: Jack the Ripper

[Abby Normal]

Hi Baron,

Can you direct me to your source for Kosminski being the subject of the seaside identification and the witness name please.

Cheers, George

hi gb
the source was the swanson marginailia and the witness was probably lawende.

[GBinOz]

I have already told you that Kosminski is the best suspect that we have because he is the only person in history we have a direct evidence against, the seaside identification.

I am sure in a weak or so you will forget that again.



The Baron

Hi Baron,

Can you direct me to your source for Kosminski being the subject of the seaside identification and the witness name please.

Cheers, George

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Aethelwulf

There is nothing to tie Bury to the Whitechapel murders, apart from speculations here and there we have nothing. Because of the sexual mutilation applied on Ellen he is a person of interest, and nothing more.

Of course he is a convicted murderer, that alone puts him miles ahead of Druitt, Lechmere and the like, still he is a person of interest and not a real suspect.

It is my own openion that Jack is totally different than Bury, after long consideration, I see it like this, Bury is a coward compared to Jack, Jack kills on the streets, Bury kills in his house, Jack shows his victims, Bury hid Ellen in a box, Jack kills strangers to him, Bury killed his wife, Jack cut throats, Bury hang with a rope, Jack escapes police, Bury went ahead to the police on his own, Jack hates prositutes, Bury married a prositute, Jack likes challenges Bury is weak and aloser.

And most importantly, Bury has an alibi for Mckenzie murder.



The Baron

Thinking about it, I'd also argue that Jack and Bury were both cowards and losers too.

Yeah, Jack was more of a risk taker, but ultimately they both preyed upon people weaker than themselves who were unable to defend themselves.

[The Baron]

This is the last time I’ll respond to your stupidity on this thread which was started by Wulf to discuss Bury and not Druitt or any other suspect. You clearly have trouble understanding English as every other poster on here can understand the point that I’ve made.

You said…



So….you are clearly saying that the fact of being a convicted murderer in itself is enough to put him ahead of other suspects who weren’t convicted murderers.

Kosminski was not a convicted murderer and so, by the standard that you yourself set in the quote above, the fact that Bury was a convicted murderer should also put him miles ahead of Kosminski. And yet….



Maybe you could find someone to explain this very obvious contradiction to you. Then again, it’s no more than I’d expect from you. So if don’t have the integrity and admit your clanger (and you’ve never shown any up until now) perhaps you can stop obsessing over Druitt and let the thread get back to Bury.

My post above is more than enough for you, read it again or have someone explain it to you.




The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

Personally, I've never been sure whether Jack hated prostitutes, or his rage was directed at women in general, with the Whitechapel streetwalkers making easy prey.

I think it's a slam dunk that he was not motivated by their money.

If he had been, he was barking up the wrong tree completely with his choice of victim.

I agree Ms D. We can’t be sure that he specifically hated prostitutes. He certainly might have done but, as you say, they were sadly the most convenient victims.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have already told you that Kosminski is the best suspect that we have because he is the only person in history we have a direct evidence against, the seaside identification.

I am sure in a weak or so you will forget that again.





The Baron

This is the last time I’ll respond to your stupidity on this thread which was started by Wulf to discuss Bury and not Druitt or any other suspect. You clearly have trouble understanding English as every other poster on here can understand the point that I’ve made.

You said…

. Of course he is a convicted murderer, that alone puts him miles ahead of Druitt, Lechmere and the like

So….you are clearly saying that the fact of being a convicted murderer in itself is enough to put him ahead of other suspects who weren’t convicted murderers.

Kosminski was not a convicted murderer and so, by the standard that you yourself set in the quote above, the fact that Bury was a convicted murderer should also put him miles ahead of Kosminski. It’s not hard to understand. And yet….

Kosminski is the best suspect we have

Maybe you could find someone to explain this very obvious contradiction to you. Then again, it’s no more than I’d expect from you. So if you don’t have the integrity and admit your clanger (and you’ve never shown any up until now) perhaps you can stop obsessing over Druitt and let the thread get back to Bury.

[Ms Diddles]

As I said, its only my opinion that Jack hates prostitutes, and I don't see him marrying one.

Besides there is no indication that Jack was interested in prostitutes money.


The Baron

Personally, I've never been sure whether Jack hated prostitutes, or his rage was directed at women in general, with the Whitechapel streetwalkers making easy prey.

I think it's a slam dunk that he was not motivated by their money.

If he had been, he was barking up the wrong tree completely with his choice of victim.

[The Baron]

What a surprise! You turn up on a thread that I’m on and immediately bring up Druitt. Who’d have thought it?

But you’ve made a little omission. Inadvertently I’m sure.

If Bury is miles ahead of Druitt, Lechmere et al because of the fact that he was a convicted murderer then he had to also be ahead of Kosminski.

And yet, can we guess who said this?



Can anyone recall Kosminski being charged with murder? Perhaps I missed it?

So perhaps you could explain how it is that, because he was a convicted murderer, Bury is a better subject than everyone….except Kosminski?

To use your favourite word Baron ‘gotcha.’

I have already told you that Kosminski is the best suspect that we have because he is the only person in history we have a direct evidence against, the seaside identification.

I am sure in a weak or so you will forget that again.





The Baron

[The Baron]

Re Jack hates prostitutes. Bury married a prostitute.

Sure, he married Ellen but IIRC that was likely for the substantial inheritance which she received.

He bled her dry financially and started abusing her as soon as they were married.

i don't know that marrying a former prostitute would preclude him from hating them.

He certainly treated Ellen as though he hated her........

As I said, its only my opinion that Jack hates prostitutes, and I don't see him marrying one.

Besides there is no indication that Jack was interested in prostitutes money.


The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Aethelwulf

There is nothing to tie Bury to the Whitechapel murders, apart from speculations here and there we have nothing. Because of the sexual mutilation applied on Ellen he is a person of interest, and nothing more.

Of course he is a convicted murderer, that alone puts him miles ahead of Druitt, Lechmere and the like, still he is a person of interest and not a real suspect.

It is my own openion that Jack is totally different than Bury, after long consideration, I see it like this, Bury is a coward compared to Jack, Jack kills on the streets, Bury kills in his house, Jack shows his victims, Bury hid Ellen in a box, Jack kills strangers to him, Bury killed his wife, Jack cut throats, Bury hang with a rope, Jack escapes police, Bury went ahead to the police on his own, Jack hates prositutes, Bury married a prositute, Jack likes challenges Bury is weak and aloser.

And most importantly, Bury has an alibi for Mckenzie murder.



The Baron

What a surprise! You turn up on a thread that I’m on and immediately bring up Druitt. Who’d have thought it?

But you’ve made a little omission. Inadvertently I’m sure.

If Bury is miles ahead of Druitt, Lechmere et al because of the fact that he was a convicted murderer then he had to also be ahead of Kosminski.

And yet, can we guess who said this?

Kosminski is the best suspect we have

Can anyone recall Kosminski being charged with murder? Perhaps I missed it?

So perhaps you could explain how it is that, because he was a convicted murderer, Bury is a better subject than everyone….except Kosminski?

To use your favourite word Baron ‘gotcha.’

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Aethelwulf

There is nothing to tie Bury to the Whitechapel murders, apart from speculations here and there we have nothing. Because of the sexual mutilation applied on Ellen he is a person of interest, and nothing more.

Of course he is a convicted murderer, that alone puts him miles ahead of Druitt, Lechmere and the like, still he is a person of interest and not a real suspect.

It is my own openion that Jack is totally different than Bury, after long consideration, I see it like this, Bury is a coward compared to Jack, Jack kills on the streets, Bury kills in his house, Jack shows his victims, Bury hid Ellen in a box, Jack kills strangers to him, Bury killed his wife, Jack cut throats, Bury hang with a rope, Jack escapes police, Bury went ahead to the police on his own, Jack hates prositutes, Bury married a prositute, Jack likes challenges Bury is weak and aloser.

And most importantly, Bury has an alibi for Mckenzie murder.



The Baron

Re Jack hates prostitutes. Bury married a prostitute.

Sure, he married Ellen but IIRC that was likely for the substantial inheritance which she received.

He bled her dry financially and started abusing her as soon as they were married.

i don't know that marrying a former prostitute would preclude him from hating them.

He certainly treated Ellen as though he hated her........

[The Baron]

Hi Aethelwulf

There is nothing to tie Bury to the Whitechapel murders, apart from speculations here and there we have nothing. Because of the sexual mutilation applied on Ellen he is a person of interest, and nothing more.

Of course he is a convicted murderer, that alone puts him miles ahead of Druitt, Lechmere and the like, still he is a person of interest and not a real suspect.

It is my own openion that Jack is totally different than Bury, after long consideration, I see it like this, Bury is a coward compared to Jack, Jack kills on the streets, Bury kills in his house, Jack shows his victims, Bury hid Ellen in a box, Jack kills strangers to him, Bury killed his wife, Jack cut throats, Bury hang with a rope, Jack escapes police, Bury went ahead to the police on his own, Jack hates prositutes, Bury married a prositute, Jack likes challenges Bury is weak and aloser.

And most importantly, Bury has an alibi for Mckenzie murder.



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

hi herlock
as usual some good points in there-but how was Bury exonerated? as far as I know,he was a person of interest who was never cleared.

Hi Abby,

Perhaps ‘exonerated’ might not be the best word to have used but the police did interview Bury and didn’t charge him. There doesn’t appear to be any record of any continued interest in him as a suspect. As Wulf has suggested maybe he fooled them in some way, it’s possible of course, but I’d suggest that it also can’t be anything like impossible that they found good reason not to pursue a case against him. Maybe they asked him “where were you on the night of….” to which he replied that he was doing something with Mr X and Mr Y all night and, on returning to Whitechapel, Mr X and Mr Y confirmed his alibi? All that I’m saying is that we can’t preclude the possibility that the police found a genuine reason for eliminating him at the time.

[rjpalmer]

Some people seem to disregard the FBI profile. The experts that constructed the profile would have worked on lots of individual cases, from which they put together an ‘average profile,’ tailored to the specifics of the Whitechapel case.

Hi Aethelwulf.

Wasn’t the profile the work of a single agent--John E. Douglas, who created it for Cosgrove-Muerer---a film company in Burbank, California?

The use of the word “experts" suggests it was a consensus, but this was not the case. And this is relevant, because it has been shown that given the same exact data, different ‘experts’ will create entirely different profiles.

Further, Douglas has raised eyebrows in recent years by coming up with some rather strange notions about other historical cases, including the idea that Charles Manson was not the ‘mastermind’ behind the Tate/LaBianca murders—a claim that doesn’t fit the facts and has been denied by the participants.

The biggest ‘credibility killer’ for Bury as a viable suspect from a police perspective must have been the fact that he was married. I just don’t think it would have been on the police’s radar that JtR could have been married.

Jacob Isenschmid was married, and the police suspected him. The suspicions were evidently strong--until another murder happened while he was in custody. The police also suspected James Sadler and he was married. They even grilled his wife, hoping she could clarify his movements in 1888. In later years, Abberline suspected Severin Klosowski--another married man.

When Bury walked into the police station he was no longer married—he was a widower, and for the most repulsive reason imaginable. I’m confident this would have instantly unticked the ‘he is safe because he’s married’ box, had their been one.

A common theme among modern theorists is that the Victorian police were too dense to suspect the average man in the street. We hear this same argument made by those accusing Lechmere, Barnett, Hutchinson, etc.

I think the evidence suggests otherwise. The police grilled Barnett. They investigated Richardson. They investigated any number of ‘normal’ blokes and, personally, I think Abberline would have been all too happy to charge Bury had he found evidence he had committed other murders.

Still, the case against Bury is more respectable than most.

[Abby Normal]

Whereas I say that, whilst he’s worthy of consideration, investigation and further research he’s not even close to being blindingly obvious. To reach that conclusion we have to perform a wholesale dismissal of the differences and points against. We also have to assume that the police, who were being pilloried, denigrated and mocked by the politicians, the Press and the public, sent two officers all the way to Dundee only to dismiss Bury because he didn’t look the part. It’s entirely possible, not provable but possible, that they did indeed come up with evidence. Bury himself might have said “I was with x at the time of the Chapman murder,’ which they confirmed on their return to London. We don’t know but it’s plausible.

Vaid suspect, yes, blindingly obviously the ripper, no.

hi herlock
as usual some good points in there-but how was Bury exonerated? as far as I know,he was a person of interest who was never cleared.