William Bury the Whitechapel Murderer ?

[John Wheat]

In light of everything else, Bury seems the best of the lot for me in terms of likelihood that he was the Ripper. Even if it only comes down to the fact that more of what we know from the evidence "sticks" to him over some of the others. It's too bad we don't know more about what the London police thought of him when he was arrested and tried for Ellen's murder. It's curious that they seemed to only show him a glancing interest. Could it simply be that, by the point Bury was tried for Ellen's murder, the London police forces were convinced/biased into believing the Ripper simply had to be a foreigner? As a born and bred Englishman, Bury could perhaps understandably have committed murder on his spouse, but nothing so depraved as what happened in the Ripper crimes, the nature of which was so poorly understood at the time?

Yes Single O Seven

I think that's all highly likely. In fact I think by this time the police would be more likely to suspect a random Jewish man and or foreigner than a born and bred Englishman.

Cheers John

[Single-O-Seven]

In light of everything else, Bury seems the best of the lot for me in terms of likelihood that he was the Ripper. Even if it only comes down to the fact that more of what we know from the evidence "sticks" to him over some of the others. It's too bad we don't know more about what the London police thought of him when he was arrested and tried for Ellen's murder. It's curious that they seemed to only show him a glancing interest. Could it simply be that, by the point Bury was tried for Ellen's murder, the London police forces were convinced/biased into believing the Ripper simply had to be a foreigner? As a born and bred Englishman, Bury could perhaps understandably have committed murder on his spouse, but nothing so depraved as what happened in the Ripper crimes, the nature of which was so poorly understood at the time?

[John Wheat]

If you ask me Bury was the Ripper however his actions after Ellen Bury's murder were strange to say the least Ripper or copycat killer.

[John Wheat]

Yeah I think it's odds on that Bury wrote on the doors at Princes Street.

[johns]

I'd agree with that Wyatt.

The candidates for scrawling the graffiti at Princes Street are-

1) A person who didn't know the occupant had just moved there from London, and just happened to write amazingly coincidental graffiti
2) A person who DID know the occupant had just moved there from London... and suspected or knew he was Jack the Ripper
3) Ellen
4) Bury himself

My money has always been on Bury

[Wyatt Earp]

Hi, I don't know how accurate this is but I read somewhere that it was Bury's wife who scrawled that message regarding JTR being in the cellar.

Hi oomafan, welcome to Bury-land here. William Beadle, in his book Jack the Ripper Unmasked, theorizes that Bury's wife Ellen wrote the two messages at the back of the residence. As I've pointed out in another thread, the chief weakness of this theory is that Ellen had very limited writing skills and so it seems unlikely she would have written messages that are in two different styles.

[oomafan]

Wh Bury

Hi, I don't know how accurate this is but I read somewhere that it was Bury's wife who scrawled that message regarding JTR being in the cellar.

Hello Jenny,

Basically there was a message on the cellar door saying that JTR is at the back of the door,and once the door was opened a message was scrawled on the back saying 'Jack the Ripper is in this seller (sic) '

As Bury was the only person in the flat at least 7 days before then it seems he wrote it but there is no proof of that.
The original source is the Dundee Advertiser newspaper.

As for the murder of his wife and breaking her bones,stuffing her into a chest then mentioning it was suicide ,i think he was already ga-ga by then - mad.

[Wyatt Earp]

The other reason I liked the look of him was the manner in which he killed his wife. Did many domestic murders of the age involve this type of mutilation, does anyone know?

While we do not appear to have this type of data for Victorian England, there is some interesting data for Washington state (1981-1995) that is cited in an academic article about the Ripper murders ("The Jack the Ripper Murders: A Modus Operandi and Signature Analysis of the 1888-1891 Whitechapel Murders" Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling, v.2, 2005, 1-21).

Out of 3359 murders in that data set here are the numbers that seem especially pertinent to a consideration of Bury:

Cutting or incising wounds 91 (2.7%)
Trauma to abdomen 52 (1.5%)
Trauma to genitalia 2 (0.1%)

In other words, any assessment of Bury should consider the possibility that what he did to Ellen's body was very rare behavior indeed by a murderer.

[Mrsperfect]

No Evidence?

Pure conjecture indeed, Roy. Some points to note:

1. "In 1888 [George Yard] was also a stables". Presumably, Beadle gets this idea from the fact that Louis Diemschutz stabled his pony in "George Yard"... but that was someplace known colloquially as "George Yard" (compare "Dutfield's Yard"), off Cable Street, and not George Yard of Tabram infamy. Problem is, Cable Street isn't particularly near the epicentre.

2. Beadle only supposes that Bury could have stabled his pony in George Yard. One might be forgiven from reading the literature that this was a definitely ascertained fact - I've certainly come across people who were under that impression - but it's nothing of the sort. Not that this matters much, once one realises that (a) George (Tabram) Yard was almost certainly mistaken for George (Diemschutz' pony) Yard; and (b) it's an open speculation on Beadle's part anyway.

3. "An ideal place to park when [Bury] was in Whitechapel and Spitalfields". Note the underlines. The only reference we have to Bury being "in" Whitechapel was when he was at a pub there - but Whitechapel extends some distance, and contained many pubs. It's quite conceivable - probable, even - that the pub in question was located at the eastern end of Whitechapel, not far from Bury's home in Bow, rather than "deep in Ripper Country", which is clearly the connection that Beadle would like us to make. Indeed, in the same block of text, Beadle states quite matter-of-factly that the Ripper's "intimate working knowledge of Whitechapel and Spitalfields... fits Bury to a tee". Well, it doesn't - at least inasmuch as we have no evidence whatsoever that Bury knew either district particularly well.

4. You'll note that, in (3) above, I've twice underlined the "and" between Whitechapel and Spitalfields, for good reason. We have only one example of Bury's "frequenting" a pub in Whitechapel - and that, as I've noted, could well have been only on the eastern fringe of that district - but there is not one example of Bury being in Spitalfields for any reason whatsoever. Beadle's conflation of the two districts, whilst apparently trifling given their close proximity, does run the risk of portraying Bury as having been more familiar with Spitalfields than might actually have been the case. The statement that George Yard was "an ideal place to park when [Bury] WAS in Whitechapel..." (where does that "was" come from?) is taking auto-suggestion to another level.

I really wish serial killers would stick to the rules!

For instance, Bury should have known he was not a local!

He shouldn't have had a sawdust business and learned all the nooks and crannies in the area. Admittedly, he let others do his work, but he did it himself for two years or more, when he was hawking and when he worked for James Martin.

We have no evidence that Bury DIDN'T know the area well. I would argue that the evidence we have points slightly more towards the fact that he did know the area well.....well enough to be found in it anyway!

I'm sure I read about more than one instance of Bury being away overnight, (in a police report I think).

Sam stated once that Ellen wouldn't have worked her local area (looking for customers). I guess she was allowed into other areas, but never allowed to stray into the murder zone. That way Bury could have walked the streets looking for his wife (for drinking money) during 'business hours' ..........without entering the danger zone!

There is evidence of Bury being in a pub in Whitechapel, it could have been at either end. The rules state that he should stay up his end, but perhaps Bury didn't know the rules? The rules state you shouldn't murder your wife too!

There is evidence of Bury owing a van, (as opposed to a cart). If this was a covered vehicle, it would be a great place to hide in an emergency, wouldn't it? There's yards all over the place but the rules state this van can't enter the murder zone, although it would be very convenient for Bury if it were.

If we are creatures of habit and Bury was seen at a pub in Whitechapel, he may have been a regular there? His wife may have been? We know Ellen was a prostitute and she worked at night, so by definition, Bury wasn't on home territory when he was seen with her in Whitechapel...so where was he?

The evidence says on one occasion he was in Whitechapel. It never mentions the 'eastern fringe' of Whitechapel. Sam thinks Bury's wife probably didn't solicit close to home, so the evidence pushes that pub further down the road I think. We have no evidence that Bury was (or wasn't) familiar with Spitalfields, so what does that prove? ............Nothing!

The evidence doesn't follow the rules?

[revpetero]

I like him as a suspect and enjoyed Euan MacPherson's book (well the first half that deals with Bury).

No doubting he was unbalanced and definitely more credible as a suspect than some others

[curious]

I see what some of you are saying, and agree with most of it. I'm not saying at all that Bury is our boy, but there is much to make him interesting. If some of us are still looking for a suspect then, from what we know about him, he has to remain near the top of the list IMO.

Like you, I think he has to be kept in the short list. He was my first choice. Now, there are others at least in a tie for that honor.

[The Grave Maurice]

I see what some of you are saying, and agree with most of it. I'm not saying at all that Bury is our boy, but there is much to make him interesting. If some of us are still looking for a suspect then, from what we know about him, he has to remain near the top of the list IMO.

[Lord-z]

I don't think that he was the Ripper. I think he was afraid of being accused of being the Ripper, after the murder. But the whole thing doesn't really match Jacks MO, strangling, stabbing and trying to hide his crime. Jack was a mutilator. That was how he got his jollies. If he was Jack, alone with a woman, having the whole night and whole day, as much time as he would ever need, he would have gone to town. Just thrown off all inhibitions, cut until there was nothing left to cut. Worse than Kelly. Then, he would have shut the door behind him, and quietly disappeared from history. Instead, he tried to hide her and went to the police. That just doesn't fit Jack.

[johns]

Bury is a very good suspect.
The problem is that we hardly imagine Jack going to the station as Bury did - with his pitiful story...
But who knows ?

Amitiés,
David

I've always thought that if Bury had been arrested for Ellen's death after a regular investigation instead of his lame explanation of her suicide, we wouldn't all be here now really.

...and if he hadn't been prosecuted for being JtR back then in Dundee for whatever reason, then we would have him as the only viable suspect now.

[curious]

My main argument against Bury is the amount of plannng he did in killing his wife,taking her to Dundee and keeping her away from other people.that doesnt to me sound like JTRs modus operandi.

I'm not convinced that Bury intended to kill his wife when they left London. It's possible he was trying to get the heck out of dodge because things were getting too hot for him.

If he had left London in order to dispose of her, he could have pushed her overboard on the ferry . . . so much easier and he was less likely to have been caught.

I believe the decision to kill her was made in Dundee. I'm not sure why.

Since he bought the rope to strangle her, the murder appears to have been premeditated.

But they were drinking. I suspect that Bury was having blackout periods.

In Dundee, Bury had no where to go and no money. It was in a strange land and therefore out of his element.

Plus, I think that his mind had completely snapped by the time he went to the police and told them she had committed suicide.

While that does sound completely crazy, perhaps he was accustomed to spinning yarns to the police and had always been believed in the past??

I like Bury for Jack -- supposing of course that I'm considering that the women were all, or most all, killed by the same hand.

I've made no real decision in my own head about that.

curious