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  • #31
    The original police photo-fit of the Yorkshire Ripper was spot on according to a surviving victim.

    Comment


    • #32
      Excellent work on the site, bravo!

      I wonder about
      "I have communicated to you my motive for the crime but as it concerns so closely the character of my wife I do not wish you to make it Known publicly."
      Any idea what he's refering to?

      I also wonder how it's known that she was a prostitute? Inferred from the court transcripts about James Martin's house or?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
        The problem you have, Abby, is that the person who is the world-class expert on signature evidence, Robert Keppel, he and his team of criminologists looked at the Alice McKenzie murder and the Pinchin Street torso case, and determined that neither one of them could be linked to the Ripper through signature analysis. McKenzie and the torsos are both dead ends, and you should abandon them.
        LOL. thanks for that rather frank advice Wyatt, but I think not. : )

        Many of the police at the time thought Mckenzie was a ripper victim and with good reason. The (somewhat) final straw with me is she was found on her back with the skirt hiked up-like the others.


        as you also may well know, the pinchin torso also had a vertical gash to her midsection and I lean toward the torsoman and the ripper being the same man.


        both McKenzie and pinchin are right in rippers wheelhouse, and close in time. what we know now about serial killers and there changes to MO I think it would unwise to rule them out based on a preferred suspect.


        re Keppel-meh. the average casebooker knows more about the ripper case than he does, and profiling is more art than science any way. having lived through the beltway sniper serial killer case, and how badly the FBI profilers jacked that assessment up, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.


        now that all being said, I still think bury is one of the best bets for the ripper and concede that AM may not have been a ripper victim, but it would be one hell of a coincidence if she wasn't.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Single-O-Seven View Post
          Hi Abby!

          Alice McKenzie is an interesting thorn in the debate of Bury's candidacy as JTR. Outside of Tabram through Kelly, she is the next best fit in the entire Whitechapel series as being a possible JTR victim. However, I think the "mild" abdominal cuts (described almost as scratches) suggest she was not a JTR victim. I just don't see why he wouldn't have cut deeper given he had the chance to do so.

          Perhaps a similar argument could be made for Ellen Bury (though her wounds were deep enough to expose her intestines), but I feel her immediate connection to Bury likely gave him cause to hesitate. He wanted to explore that lust/fascination that satisfied him, but given she was his own wife this may have impacted his desire to do so, perhaps out of fear of looking too inescapably like the Ripper.

          With AM, I cannot quite get what her killer was otherwise trying to do. By making the abdominal cuts was he making her murder seem Ripper-like but did not have the nerve (let alone the need/desire) to fully inflict the sort of savagery JTR did? And what became of her killer? Why did he not strike again, or did he end up moving away/incarcerated/dead? There is a whole worthwhile mystery in just AM's death, but it may, I'm afraid, be more hopeless to find a solution for it than for the rest of the series.
          Hi Single!
          Alice McKenzie is an interesting thorn in the debate of Bury's candidacy as JTR. Outside of Tabram through Kelly, she is the next best fit in the entire Whitechapel series as being a possible JTR victim. However, I think the "mild" abdominal cuts (described almost as scratches) suggest she was not a JTR victim. I just don't see why he wouldn't have cut deeper given he had the chance to do so.
          yup. I agree. but perhaps he was wasted, had the wrong knife, was sick etc. But the fact remains the sig and MO have many similarities to the ripper: same victimology, same place, time of night, unsolved, similar wounds and the clincher for me-on back with skirt hiked up to expose the abdomen.

          Perhaps a similar argument could be made for Ellen Bury (though her wounds were deep enough to expose her intestines), but I feel her immediate connection to Bury likely gave him cause to hesitate. He wanted to explore that lust/fascination that satisfied him, but given she was his own wife this may have impacted his desire to do so, perhaps out of fear of looking too inescapably like the Ripper.
          absolutely. I agree. if he was the ripper, my explanation would be-he just couldnt help himself. Plus he was effed up and it is his wife-so could easily explain the differences and why he didnt go all the way.


          With AM, I cannot quite get what her killer was otherwise trying to do. By making the abdominal cuts was he making her murder seem Ripper-like but did not have the nerve (let alone the need/desire) to fully inflict the sort of savagery JTR did? And what became of her killer? Why did he not strike again, or did he end up moving away/incarcerated/dead? There is a whole worthwhile mystery in just AM's death, but it may, I'm afraid, be more hopeless to find a solution for it than for the rest of the series.

          personally I think he probably moved away after AM, but that's just me.

          yes it is a twisted goat rope for sure.


          but you will not find me arguing to hard against Bury, because as I said, hes one of the better candidates for the ripper.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
            I think that Bury probably did assume that a policeman would be on the way. That's why he didn't stay to mutilate.

            After Schwartz and Pipeman had left, he could have eliminated Stride and been off into the shadows of the night in less than a minute.
            hi earp

            I too think stride was definitely killed by broad shoulders. and bury makes a good fit for him too IMHO.

            charmer, thug, well spoken, drunk, mercurial, bad temper, woman beater. killer. sounds like BS man to me!
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #36
              Hi Abby,

              Thanks for your response and opinions. It's always difficult to trade thoughts with people about the probable actions of a lust murderer. For some reason, people just think it's weird.

              I still get twisted in knots over Alice McKenzie, but I do agree with Keppel for the most part - though I also agree with your earlier comments that profiling is far from perfect. For every instance we hear how well a profile worked, I fear there's several instances where it did not. To me, AM is a close call, but not enough to convince me she had to be a JTR victim. And as I cannot get away from thinking WHB was most likely the Ripper, I'm willing to let the differences in her murder differentiate and remove her as a JTR crime. Had she been completely "opened up" and had organs removed we'd be having a different discussion.

              EDIT: I'm curious, what are every one's thoughts on Rose Mylett as a possible "incomplete" Ripper victim? I know Bill Beadle considered her a good possibility for Bury, as she was within close proximity to his home (at a time when Bury had sold off his transportation) and was possibly killed with a ligature in the same fashion as Ellen Bury. Was this WHB's first attempt to step away from throat slashing?
              Last edited by Single-O-Seven; 01-17-2019, 05:04 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Single-O-Seven View Post
                Hi Abby,

                Thanks for your response and opinions. It's always difficult to trade thoughts with people about the probable actions of a lust murderer. For some reason, people just think it's weird.

                I still get twisted in knots over Alice McKenzie, but I do agree with Keppel for the most part - though I also agree with your earlier comments that profiling is far from perfect. For every instance we hear how well a profile worked, I fear there's several instances where it did not. To me, AM is a close call, but not enough to convince me she had to be a JTR victim. And as I cannot get away from thinking WHB was most likely the Ripper, I'm willing to let the differences in her murder differentiate and remove her as a JTR crime. Had she been completely "opened up" and had organs removed we'd be having a different discussion.

                EDIT: I'm curious, what are every one's thoughts on Rose Mylett as a possible "incomplete" Ripper victim? I know Bill Beadle considered her a good possibility for Bury, as she was within close proximity to his home (at a time when Bury had sold off his transportation) and was possibly killed with a ligature in the same fashion as Ellen Bury. Was this WHB's first attempt to step away from throat slashing?
                Mu own personal opinion is thay she was not a ripper victem. Not enough similarities there to make the call. Sorry
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
                  Excellent work on the site, bravo!

                  I wonder about

                  Any idea what he's refering to?

                  I also wonder how it's known that she was a prostitute? Inferred from the court transcripts about James Martin's house or?
                  Thanks, Kattrup.

                  We don't really know what Bury was referring to when he mentioned Ellen's character.

                  Ellen was a worker at a brothel being operated by James Martin and Kate Spooner. At this time, she was renting a room from Elizabeth Haynes. Haynes noticed that Ellen was never in her room at night (Macpherson, The Trial of Jack the Ripper, p.45). Later, Ellen admitted to Haynes “that she had worked as a prostitute for James Martin for the whole of the time she had been a tenant with her” (p.48).
                  “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                  William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                  http://www.williambury.org

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Single-O-Seven View Post
                    I'm curious, what are every one's thoughts on Rose Mylett as a possible "incomplete" Ripper victim? I know Bill Beadle considered her a good possibility for Bury, as she was within close proximity to his home (at a time when Bury had sold off his transportation) and was possibly killed with a ligature in the same fashion as Ellen Bury. Was this WHB's first attempt to step away from throat slashing?
                    I don't see a good reason to link this murder to Bury.
                    “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                    William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                    http://www.williambury.org

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                      Ellen was a worker at a brothel being operated by James Martin and Kate Spooner. At this time, she was renting a room from Elizabeth Haynes. Haynes noticed that Ellen was never in her room at night (Macpherson, The Trial of Jack the Ripper, p.45). Later, Ellen admitted to Haynes “that she had worked as a prostitute for James Martin for the whole of the time she had been a tenant with her” (p.48).
                      Thank you for the info

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        Many of the police at the time thought Mckenzie was a ripper victim and with good reason. The (somewhat) final straw with me is she was found on her back with the skirt hiked up-like the others.

                        as you also may well know, the pinchin torso also had a vertical gash to her midsection and I lean toward the torsoman and the ripper being the same man.
                        Sorry for the late reply to this.

                        According to Arnold’s report (Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, p. 502), McKenzie’s body was found lying on its side. Phillips found her lying on her back, but he wasn’t the first person on the scene. She was evidently tipped onto her back prior to his arrival. We have sexually degrading positioning of the victims’ legs in the Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly and Bury murders. We don’t have that in the McKenzie murder. For anyone who thinks the victims’ legs could all have wound up in those positions by accident, please see my post “Did Bury Pose the Bodies?” http://williambury.org/blog6/2017/12...se-the-bodies/

                        Why would you prefer the superficial cut to McKenzie’s abdomen to the opening up of Ellen Bury’s abdomen?

                        The Ripper was a murderer who quickly incapacitated his victims, and we see that in the Ellen Bury murder as well. The person who murdered Alice McKenzie was the exact opposite of that. Of McKenzie, Phillips wrote that there was “no physiological reason why the woman should not have uttered a cry” (Ultimate, p.509).

                        There’s nothing wrong with questioning the view of an expert, but you better have your ducks in order if you expect to prevail. You haven’t given the Ripper community a good reason to set aside the signature assessment made by four professionals, one of whom is among the world’s leading experts on the topic, in favor of your own assessment.
                        “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                        William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                        http://www.williambury.org

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                          Why would you prefer the superficial cut to McKenzie’s abdomen to the opening up of Ellen Bury’s abdomen?.
                          McKenzie's murder fits the victimology, MO and geography of the killer.

                          Ellen Bury's mutilation was mostly superficial too. I'm sure being crammed into a box was part of the reason her intestines were protruding from the wound.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                            McKenzie's murder fits the victimology, MO and geography of the killer.
                            But it doesn't fit the signature, which generally remains very stable. On a superficial level, the McKenzie murder looks more like a Ripper murder than the Ellen Bury murder. It's when you examine the underlying signature structures of the two murders that you see that Ellen Bury belongs to the Ripper and McKenzie does not.

                            Ellen Bury's mutilation was mostly superficial too. I'm sure being crammed into a box was part of the reason her intestines were protruding from the wound.
                            The doctors who examined Ellen Bury's body indicated that her abdomen had been cut open. McKenzie's abdomen was not, even though McKenzie's murderer had ample opportunity to do so.
                            “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                            William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                            http://www.williambury.org

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                              Sorry for the late reply to this.

                              According to Arnold’s report (Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, p. 502), McKenzie’s body was found lying on its side. Phillips found her lying on her back, but he wasn’t the first person on the scene. She was evidently tipped onto her back prior to his arrival. We have sexually degrading positioning of the victims’ legs in the Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly and Bury murders. We don’t have that in the McKenzie murder. For anyone who thinks the victims’ legs could all have wound up in those positions by accident, please see my post “Did Bury Pose the Bodies?” http://williambury.org/blog6/2017/12...se-the-bodies/

                              Why would you prefer the superficial cut to McKenzie’s abdomen to the opening up of Ellen Bury’s abdomen?

                              The Ripper was a murderer who quickly incapacitated his victims, and we see that in the Ellen Bury murder as well. The person who murdered Alice McKenzie was the exact opposite of that. Of McKenzie, Phillips wrote that there was “no physiological reason why the woman should not have uttered a cry” (Ultimate, p.509).

                              There’s nothing wrong with questioning the view of an expert, but you better have your ducks in order if you expect to prevail. You haven’t given the Ripper community a good reason to set aside the signature assessment made by four professionals, one of whom is among the world’s leading experts on the topic, in favor of your own assessment.
                              HI Wyatt
                              According to Arnold’s report (Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, p. 502), McKenzie’s body was found lying on its side. Phillips found her lying on her back, but he wasn’t the first person on the scene. She was evidently tipped onto her back prior to his arrival. We have sexually degrading positioning of the victims’ legs in the Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly and Bury murders. We don’t have that in the McKenzie murder. For anyone who thinks the victims’ legs could all have wound up in those positions by accident, please see my post “Did Bury Pose the Bodies?” http://williambury.org/blog6/2017/12...se-the-bodies/
                              McKenzie was found with her skirt hiked up exposing the abdomen-like most of the other ripper victims.

                              she also fits the ripper in many other aspects-at night, stranger murder, location, victimology.

                              she fits MO-cause of death-- severance of left carteroid artery.(unlike Ellen Bury)

                              and sig-- with post mortem mutilation to the abdomen and specifically a vertical gash.


                              Bond and monro thought she was a ripper victim.



                              theres more than enough there to conclude that most likley she was a ripper victim.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                                But it doesn't fit the signature, which generally remains very stable. On a superficial level, the McKenzie murder looks more like a Ripper murder than the Ellen Bury murder. It's when you examine the underlying signature structures of the two murders that you see that Ellen Bury belongs to the Ripper and McKenzie does not.



                                The doctors who examined Ellen Bury's body indicated that her abdomen had been cut open. McKenzie's abdomen was not, even though McKenzie's murderer had ample opportunity to do so.
                                and yet bury with obviously all the time in the world didn't go to town on ellen like the ripper did with Kelly,given the opportunity of committing the murder in a private residence.

                                and on the contrary-mckenzies murder, being out on the street, the killer dosnt have "ample opportunity" to do so, and very well may have been scared off like with earlier ripper victims.
                                Last edited by Abby Normal; 01-24-2019, 02:08 PM.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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