The broken window

[packers stem]

Hi Phil.

When Cox followed Mary & Blotchy, Cox didn't mention Kelly reaching through the window to open the door.

Which is consistent with something I read elsewhere, that locks were mostly used when the tenant was inside, for personal protection.
People carried their possessions around with them so an assault was more likely than burglary. When the tenant was out they didn't lock the door, they had nothing in the room worth stealing, everything they treasured was on their person.

Assaulting someone in the street was one way to steal their possessions, yes, and it did happen, but there would be witnesses. Breaking in and stealing from them is even better, no witnesses, being behind closed doors.
Moral of the story, when at home, lock your door, when you're out leave it off the latch.

Evening to you all
With every day that passes I find I'm believing Barnett's story less and less and that's where the whole lost key,arm through window stuff comes from...
If we're thinking mortice lock and latch a bit similar to old back doors then there HAS TO BE A MISSING KEY as they would have tried the latch.
Surely wouldn't have been a yale type lock in those days...maybe at the top end of society but not in McCarthys rents... We need to see the door lol
I'm still going with it being blocked by the bed and the removal of the window on Arnolds arrival

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil.

When Cox followed Mary & Blotchy, Cox didn't mention Kelly reaching through the window to open the door.

Which is consistent with something I read elsewhere, that locks were mostly used when the tenant was inside, for personal protection.
People carried their possessions around with them so an assault was more likely than burglary. When the tenant was out they didn't lock the door, they had nothing in the room worth stealing, everything they treasured was on their person.

Assaulting someone in the street was one way to steal their possessions, yes, and it did happen, but there would be witnesses. Breaking in and stealing from them is even better, no witnesses, being behind closed doors.
Moral of the story, when at home, lock your door, when you're out leave it off the latch.

Hello Jon,

I don't believe Cox followed Mary and Blotchy down the alleyway did she? In which case..she wouldn't have seen how they entered the room? I could be mistaken?


Phil

[Wickerman]

MARY would have to get back in to her own place every time she went out? Now she didn't need a blinking pickaxe every time. So...duh!

Hi Phil.

When Cox followed Mary & Blotchy, Cox didn't mention Kelly reaching through the window to open the door.

Which is consistent with something I read elsewhere, that locks were mostly used when the tenant was inside, for personal protection.
People carried their possessions around with them so an assault was more likely than burglary. When the tenant was out they didn't lock the door, they had nothing in the room worth stealing, everything they treasured was on their person.

Assaulting someone in the street was one way to steal their possessions, yes, and it did happen, but there would be witnesses. Breaking in and stealing from them is even better, no witnesses, being behind closed doors.
Moral of the story, when at home, lock your door, when you're out leave it off the latch.

[David Orsam]

Hello Packers Stem, Wickerman,

All of which can be summed up thus..

Barnett would have known how to open the door.
McCarthy would have known how to open the door.
All the policemen who looked through the windows would have the possibility of knowing how to open the door.
All of the medical men likewise.
Any neighbour that may have peered through the broken windows likewise. Likewise McCarthy's rent collector.

All of which..and let us just ignore the time scale and the waiting around, the dogs, etc, for a moment...leads me to ask a very important question.

Why ask someone to get a pickaxe to break the door open anyway?

You see, I simply cannot believe that in the time span between the body first being seen and the time of the actual entry to the room, nobody..nobody actually had been thinking at all. What the flaming heck do X amount of policemen, the landlord, his servant, X amount of doctors, X amount of near neighbours actually talk about for that length of time? It was a cold morning with drizzle. That's rain to you and me. Not a lot of umbrella mentions I note. So all these well clad people are standing around, cold and wet, talking about the victim, her background, her life, and not one single person said..After the orders to go in came..."hang on..you don't need a pickaxe, just reach through the window".

Didn't it occur to Abberline that if he had been told that the key was missing...

MARY would have to get back in to her own place every time she went out? Now she didn't need a blinking pickaxe every time. So...duh!

People say..oh..you are just looking for a problem where there isn't one.
In this case...that's my point. There isn't a problem opening that door. But by the most amazing set of circumstances. .opening the door BECAME a problem.
That is what is most unbelievable. The solution was at hand. The solution was simple. Yet..no.

And the worst thing is that there were people on hand to know the answer. It was staring them straight in the face.

Which is where I suggest that the delay in opening that door takes on a whole new meaning.

But then

Some people around here see all of the above as quite quite normal.

I don't. Sorry.

Are you aware of a character in South Park called Captain Hindsight?

[Phil Carter]

Agreed...McCarthys lack of help is a concern...he looked through the window himself!!
Even if he didn't have a spare key, which I don't believe,he knew the lay out, the door and the lock

Hello Packers Stem, Wickerman,

All of which can be summed up thus..

Barnett would have known how to open the door.
McCarthy would have known how to open the door.
All the policemen who looked through the windows would have the possibility of knowing how to open the door.
All of the medical men likewise.
Any neighbour that may have peered through the broken windows likewise. Likewise McCarthy's rent collector.

All of which..and let us just ignore the time scale and the waiting around, the dogs, etc, for a moment...leads me to ask a very important question.

Why ask someone to get a pickaxe to break the door open anyway?

You see, I simply cannot believe that in the time span between the body first being seen and the time of the actual entry to the room, nobody..nobody actually had been thinking at all. What the flaming heck do X amount of policemen, the landlord, his servant, X amount of doctors, X amount of near neighbours actually talk about for that length of time? It was a cold morning with drizzle. That's rain to you and me. Not a lot of umbrella mentions I note. So all these well clad people are standing around, cold and wet, talking about the victim, her background, her life, and not one single person said..After the orders to go in came..."hang on..you don't need a pickaxe, just reach through the window".

Didn't it occur to Abberline that if he had been told that the key was missing...

MARY would have to get back in to her own place every time she went out? Now she didn't need a blinking pickaxe every time. So...duh!

People say..oh..you are just looking for a problem where there isn't one.
In this case...that's my point. There isn't a problem opening that door. But by the most amazing set of circumstances. .opening the door BECAME a problem.
That is what is most unbelievable. The solution was at hand. The solution was simple. Yet..no.

And the worst thing is that there were people on hand to know the answer. It was staring them straight in the face.

Which is where I suggest that the delay in opening that door takes on a whole new meaning.

But then

Some people around here see all of the above as quite quite normal.

I don't. Sorry.


Phil

[packers stem]

One other small point is a statement in the star stating that the bedstead was blocking the door and because of this it was believed that the killer left via the window...

[packers stem]

Those windows may not have opened in years
Even McCarthy, if he wasn't aware that the lock could be reached, it only being known to Barnett & Kelly?, he should have been able to make the suggestion.
Like, "hey, the lock is mounted high enough that you should be able to reach the lock through the broken window", or something like that.

Anyone seeing the flesh on the table, behind the door, must have been able to see the lock, wouldn't you think?

Agreed...McCarthys lack of help is a concern...he looked through the window himself!!
Even if he didn't have a spare key, which I don't believe,he knew the lay out, the door and the lock

[Wickerman]

Small point but why not put your arm through the broken pane, unclip the sash window and open it

Those windows may not have opened in years
Even McCarthy, if he wasn't aware that the lock could be reached, it only being known to Barnett & Kelly?, he should have been able to make the suggestion.
Like, "hey, the lock is mounted high enough that you should be able to reach the lock through the broken window", or something like that.

Anyone seeing the flesh on the table, behind the door, must have been able to see the lock, wouldn't you think?

[Wickerman]

Hi Rosella, Hi Wickerman,

But would he really axe the door if he had nothing to hide? If he didn't keep a spare key, he's gonna have to chop down a door everytime a prostitute skips out on the rent

The solution could be as simple as Mrs McCarthy being out on some errand at the time and had the keys with her, or the master key.
The fact he forced the door doesn't necessarily suggest that he didn't have a spare key, it only suggest he could lay his hands on another key at that moment when the police wanted in.

I'm sure the police would have asked just the same questions you are asking, that they can't believe he wouldn't have a second key. Maybe there was an innocent answer to that question, that's all I am suggesting.

[packers stem]

Small point but why not put your arm through the broken pane, unclip the sash window and open it

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rosella, Hi Wickerman,

But would he really axe the door if he had nothing to hide? If he didn't keep a spare key, he's gonna have to chop down a door everytime a prostitute skips out on the rent

[Wickerman]

The relationship between servant & master was very strong in those days. People had a place and they were expected to know their place.
Bowyer's duty was to his master first, especially as his master was a matter of feet away. Bowyer's place is not to make decisions, but to inform his master and wait for his decision.

McCarthy was not stupid, on the one hand it is hard to believe he didn't have a spare key. Yet, McCarthy lived in a crowded house, brothers, wives & children, it should have been relatively easy for him to have an alibi for the night of the murder, it's not like he lived alone.
So, on balance, not having a spare key was probably the true situation, careless, but true. Why should he have another key made, and the cost, getting in is their problem, let them deal with it.
We all have little things that we should tend to but keep putting off, McCarthy was likely no different.

McCarthy is also concerned about damage & cost of repair, so I have no doubt he would have stepped up with a tool (a pick?) with which to force the door, to keep the damage to a minimum. The police would not have come with a sledgehammer to break their way in. They would approach a local contractor to borrow something, so McCarthy was helping them out while looking after his interests too.

[Rosella]

The mystery to me is how McCarthy couldn't have a key. Bowyer goes to the landlord when he sees a mutilated corpse through the window...why? If you saw a butchered body through a window..would you scream for the police or would you go and see your boss the landlord first?

Break down the door with an axe? I've never heard of a landlord not having a key to his property. McCarthy trusts the only key to a prostitute who hasn't paid the rent in months?

This story isn't right.

Put yourself in McCarthy's position, Rocky. I think he may well have thought to himself as he stood in front of that window and realised he'd have to call the police. "If I admit that I have a key to this room and the police know that I work seconds away from it, they might ask me some awkward questions about having easy access. I know what, I'll tell 'em I only had one key, gave it to Mary and she lost it.'

That's the easiest explanation, I think. Even if the police didn't believe him, and they probably didn't, how would they prove that he was lying?

[RockySullivan]

Extract of deadly nightshade or Bella Donna.

Once similar was used for gastric ulcers.

Thanks for the link.

Personally I've wondered if the women might have been drugged with Atropine/Scopolamine from a Nightshade tincture hours before their murders. The drugs effects can last for a long time. The way Eddies was arrested for public intoxication and she said her name was "nothing" could possibly be the result of a disassociative. These drugs were used by the Thugees to control victims, so someone who had spent time in India could be familiar with their method. Off topic.

[RockySullivan]

The mystery to me is how McCarthy couldn't have a key. Bowyer goes to the landlord when he sees a mutilated corpse through the window...why? If you saw a butchered body through a window..would you scream for the police or would you go and see your boss the landlord first?

Break down the door with an axe? I've never heard of a landlord not having a key to his property. McCarthy trusts the only key to a prostitute who hasn't paid the rent in months?

This story isn't right.