Buck's Row Timings

[wigngown]

I'd need to stew on that one.

[Fisherman]

David Orsam:

There were two differences between the walk I did and Fisherman's presumed walk. Firstly, I started the journey from the front door of one of the houses in the middle of Doveton Street whereas Fisherman and AG appear to have started from the street (saving a few seconds).

In 1888, the houses were not as far back as they are now. They were all the way out to the street, more or less. We therefore started from the approximate position of the door, as it was back in 1888.

And now you have gone and started an idea that we were "saving seconds". Implying that we had a goal to do so.

Nice.

This is the exact kind of thing that happens when an agenda is coupled to lacking knowledge.

I actually stopped reading the thread right there and then, and I donīt see myself returning to it any time soon.

[Robert St Devil]

That's not possible Robert because the entire area around where Nichols' body was found is currently inaccessible due to construction work. Having said that, you don't need to be in Durward Street to carry out the sort of reconstruction you have mentioned - it's something you could do anywhere.

Point taken, David. I did get my answer however; from Robert Paul, no less. His inquest statement:

The man[Cross] walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman.

[Patrick S]

Given the approximate nature of the timings I also don't see anything suspicious here but I wouldn't go as far as saying that those timings reveal that there wasn't enough time for Lechmere to murder Nichols, especially as we only have Lechmere's word for the "about 3.30" part of the evidence.

I agree. Any timing exercise is, of course, irrelevant if Cross had left home at 2am looking for a victim. I think it's worth noting, however, that the times given by Cross on the night in question reconcile perfectly with his distance and route to work and the time he was expected for work at Pickford's. He knew that a delay of more than a few minutes would put him "behind time". Anyone who commutes any distance to work knows this. If you hit particularly heavy traffic or must stop for to refuel you know, without checking the time, "I'm going to be late".

Cross allowed thirty minutes for what was - at a comfortable pace - a 25 minute walk to work. There was likely no reason to allow more time as he would not have been slowed by heavy traffic or accidents, malfunctioning traffic lights, or road closures. Thus, what happened on August 31 was an anomaly. For a man walking to work in 1888 between 3:30am and 4:00am there were far fewer impediments to his on-time arrival than exist for the modern (auto) commuter.

[David Orsam]

Plus we don't know when Lechmere left his residence to the second. We don't know whether there was a clock in his house or how reliable it was.

I remember when I was posting on the Lizzie Borden forum one of the witnesses saw one of the murder victims return to his house at what she stated was a certain time but it turned out that her kitchen clock was ten minutes out. And this was a middleclass household!

In the case of the murder of Annie Wootten in 1915 (which I tell the story of in my book 'The Islington Murder Mystery') it was essential to work out the exact time of the murder, fixed from a clock outside the Three Brewers Public House. The licensee of the pub told the police that the clock was maintained by a contractor whose employee came round every Thursday. A statement was obtained by the police from that man, Charles Hattich, and it's worth reproducing here to show the type of detail and issues involved:

"I am a learned watch and clock maker in the employ of Camerer Cuss & Co, 56 New Oxford Street WC. The clock facing the outside of the house - faces towards the tube station - has an inside face towards the bars. The hands of the face inside the bars are kept five minutes fast and the hands of the face outside are kept at the right time. I remember going to the Three Brewers PH on Thursday 25th March 1915 and winding the clock up but I cannot remember if I had to move hands or not. I know I did not move the hands more than a minute or two on Thursday the 25th March. The one or two minutes would be I think gained during the week."

The murder had been committed on 23rd March.

Clearly even where there was a clock by which to set the time, one which maintained on a weekly basis, there was a margin of error of two minutes.

[David Orsam]

It would appear that the times you have recorded are consistent with what Cross himself related. In short, I see nothing suspicious in these times. It appears - based on what you've reported here - that Cross had a fairly consistent routine worked out that allowed him to get to Pickford's before his start time. The routine appears to have been followed here, with him finding himself slightly behind time due to his having found Nichols lying in the street and spending time with Paul over the body. I do not see enough time here for Cross to walk to a spot near where Nichols fell, engage her in conversation, establish his needs, her services, price, etc., step into the shadows to ostensibly transact said business, cut her throat/nearly decapitate her, mutilate her abdomen, hear Paul's approach, then step to the middle of the street to await his arrival, touch his shoulder, and ask him to come see.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Given the approximate nature of the timings I also don't see anything suspicious here but I wouldn't go as far as saying that those timings reveal that there wasn't enough time for Lechmere to murder Nichols, especially as we only have Lechmere's word for the "about 3.30" part of the evidence.

[David Orsam]

Hello David Orsam.

I wonder if you would be willing to indulge the theoretical with the hypothetical. That is, to say, take a pal/chum/mate/buddy with you next time to reenact the role of Paul on the next "sunny day in London" in order to estimate a timed account for "the Lechmere-Paul encounter". As in, Lechmere arrives, walks across and taps the approaching Paul's shoulder, calls him over, converses the matter, etc.

That's not possible Robert because the entire area around where Nichols' body was found is currently inaccessible due to construction work. Having said that, you don't need to be in Durward Street to carry out the sort of reconstruction you have mentioned - it's something you could do anywhere.

[Patrick S]

First, thank you, David. You have performed a very useful exercise, resulting in a very instructive, informative thread! Thank you, sir.

It would appear that the times you have recorded are consistent with what Cross himself related. In short, I see nothing suspicious in these times. It appears - based on what you've reported here - that Cross had a fairly consistent routine worked out that allowed him to get to Pickford's before his start time. The routine appears to have been followed here, with him finding himself slightly behind time due to his having found Nichols lying in the street and spending time with Paul over the body. I do not see enough time here for Cross to walk to a spot near where Nichols fell, engage her in conversation, establish his needs, her services, price, etc., step into the shadows to ostensibly transact said business, cut her throat/nearly decapitate her, mutilate her abdomen, hear Paul's approach, then step to the middle of the street to await his arrival, touch his shoulder, and ask him to come see.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

[Joshua Rogan]

I haven't walked this myself, but isn't it more like a 3-4 minute walk from the murder site to Hanbury Street/Old Montague Street?

[Robert St Devil]

By happy chance, on what was a sunny day in London...

I would go with the slower time, considering that it was early morning & dark, and he may have been "minding his steps" down the darker stretches of his path. {Plus, we can't account that he may have stopped to 'write his name' on a wall somewhere; it was morning after all.}

Hello David Orsam.

I wonder if you would be willing to indulge the theoretical with the hypothetical. That is, to say, take a pal/chum/mate/buddy with you next time to reenact the role of Paul on the next "sunny day in London" in order to estimate a timed account for "the Lechmere-Paul encounter". As in, Lechmere arrives, walks across and taps the approaching Paul's shoulder, calls him over, converses the matter, etc. My mind wants to add 3 or 4 minutes for this interaction.
{8-9 minute walk to Buck's Row + 3-4 minute encounter + 1-2 minute walk to Mizen = 12 to 14 minutes}

[GUT]

And remember nine minutes was very different back then;-)

Basically, we have the age old question, how long is a piece of string?

It was a strange comment wasn't it.

[Rosella]

Plus we don't know when Lechmere left his residence to the second. We don't know whether there was a clock in his house or how reliable it was.

I remember when I was posting on the Lizzie Borden forum one of the witnesses saw one of the murder victims return to his house at what she stated was a certain time but it turned out that her kitchen clock was ten minutes out. And this was a middleclass household!

Lechmere certainly wasn't hurrying to get to work or he wouldn't have bothered to stop to look at a bit of tarpaulin.

[drstrange169]

And remember nine minutes was very different back then;-)

Basically, we have the age old question, how long is a piece of string?

[GUT]

Remember, people walked slower in those days than they do now.

People were also shorter, thus taking shorter steps.

I guess also had less energy in Whitechapel, what with long hours and poor diet.

[Scott Nelson]

Remember, people walked slower in those days than they do now.