How "safe" were the respective murder sites?

[MrBarnett]

Just to add my four penn'orth of common sense to the proceedings. This was not a pub, it was a club for people with serious political beliefs. I can't see someone looking round and saying, 'Its a bit dead in here tonight, I'm off to the Nihilist's Arms in Fairclough Street.' I imagine it would have been more like a private party, where early leavers would feel the need to make their excuses to the hosts before departing.

'What, you are leaving before comrade Rodinsksy has sung ' Pogrom Blues'? Just how committed to the cause are you?

MrB

[Fisherman]

Fish,

What's more anarchic, a trickle or all out of
the door at the same time?

MrB

There you go! So the street WOULD have been empty, in wait for the anarchist onset.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I don't know what you're arguing about. Really I don't. You just might need a break.

Mike

Im arguing about whether or not we may surmise that there was a steady trickle of clubbers into Berner Street, one per minute or thereabouts (your assertion) or that there were substantial removes of time when the street had no clubbers on it, as per Schwartz, Mortimer and the absense of any witness having left the club between 00.45 and 01.00 and testifying about it (my take on things).

How you could have missed that is beyond me, especially as you were the one who presented a lot of the arguments.

The best,
Fisherman

[Errata]

You know, it's possible that all of the murder sites were perfectly safe, and he knew they were perfectly safe, and demonstrates that by not getting caught. We don't know that he was interrupted with Stride. It might not have been Jack who killed her, and even if it was, he may have chosen not to continue because something disqualified her.

[Michael W Richards]

Taken over from the "FBI Profile" thread. A discussion on the comparative "safety" of various murder sites might be interesting, so here's one for a kick-off.
Not so much of a risk-taker, John. Mitre Square was sparsely populated compared to Berner Street, comprising a number of non-residential premises. Besides, it was much quieter than Dutfield's Yard, and the murder was committed in the darkest part of the Square, nowhere near a busy clubhouse. Furthermore, there were no pipe-smokers, broad-shouldered men, incontinent Poles, doorstepping neighbours, Gladstone-bag clutching salesmen, or donkey-trotting Dim$hitz's going to and fro. Just two policemen on different beats.

If "Jack" was that much of a risk-taker, and Dutfield's Yard was such a "good" place to commit murder, how come he bottled out of the Stride murder so quickly?

To that last point Sam, the Yard was a good spot...had she been killed in it....but she wasn't killed in the yard, she was killed in the passageway mere feet from the street. As for Mitre Square, had the killer known of the police beats that covered that square, and the fact that a policeman's bedroom window looked down on the murder site, and that the darkness was almost complete at the murder scene, he might have had great reservations about that location. In fact, that murder takes place when the only people we know of that were out and about in that immediate area were police...or retired police.

I think the prevailing theory of a mentally ill man randomly assaulting strangers, working prostitutes,... in and of itself dismisses the idea that any Ripper kill was done somewhere the killer believed was "safe". He acted impulsively, based on his assessment of the victim and the window of opportunity.

Frankly I don't believe he cared where he did his work...Bucks Row as the preeminent example of that, and the move to he Hanbury backyard might just as easily have been so he could hope for more time alone with the body, not as a safer venue.

As for the 3 Canonicals that followed Annie,. there is no evidence that any of them were soliciting at the time, there is no evidence that excludes the possibility that they knew their killer, and there is no physical evidence that ties any of those murders to the first 2...including the demonstrated skill and knowledge used in the first 2 murders.

Cheers

[Fisherman]

Frankly I don't believe he cared where he did his work...Bucks Row as the preeminent example of that, and the move to he Hanbury backyard might just as easily have been so he could hope for more time alone with the body, not as a safer venue.
Cheers

One advantage came with the other, Michael. Being left alone resulted in being able to leave undetected.
On the whole, you are spot on here otherwise - he prioritized seclusion over fleeing opportunities, just as I have said many times by now. Itīs my exact take too.
And I do think that Nichols or her killer felt the handles of the stable doors leading into Browns before she died.

The best,
Fisherman

[Michael W Richards]

I wonder what time the club normally closed.

Did they ring a bell and call out, 'Time, comrades PLEASE ! Haven't you got shtetls to go to??'

The meeting was over before 11:30 that night, and we know of around 30 people that were still in the club at 1am. We also know by virtue of the neighbors that often "low men" were seen or heard in the passageway smoking and talking after meetings, long after 1am....so the choice to kill Liz feet from the street in the passageway suggests one of a vey few things.....1. That the killer didn't know the habits of the club members and their frequent use of that passageway after 1am, 2. That the killer sought only o cut Liz Stride once...clearly not a ripper trait, and 3. That the killer was among those men that were still in attendance, and that he killed Liz because she refused an offer to go deeper into the yard for some antics, or that he thought she was spying on the club, or that he knew her and had some lethal grudge against her.

Funny that Liz Stride, Kate Eddowes and Mary Kelly had only recently had changes in their personal lives with respect to men....Liz just broke up with Kidney, Kate and John do not seem to be living "as man and wife", and Mary had just thrown John out.

Many people assume by the physical wounds that only one person must have been responsible for the murders, or capable of them, assumptions that
ignore the jilted lover possibilities, the love triangle possibilities as in Marys case, and the possibility that they were killed because of something they knew that posed a threat to others...like Kates claim she knew the killer and intended to turn him in.

A knife and a motive are the necessary components for all of these murders, assuming the only motive could be compulsive madness is just a cheap short cut...not an answer.

Cheers

[John G]

Im arguing about whether or not we may surmise that there was a steady trickle of clubbers into Berner Street, one per minute or thereabouts (your assertion) or that there were substantial removes of time when the street had no clubbers on it, as per Schwartz, Mortimer and the absense of any witness having left the club between 00.45 and 01.00 and testifying about it (my take on things).

How you could have missed that is beyond me, especially as you were the one who presented a lot of the arguments.

The best,
Fisherman

Hello Fisherman,

At about 8:30 around 100 people attended a discussion at the Berner Street Club, however, at about 11:30pm the talk ended and most people left, leaving about 20 to 30 individuals who stayed behind.

Between 11:30pm and 1:00am, a period of one and half hours, Begg and Bennett (2012) identify just 7 individuals who either entered or left the club: Morris Eagle and his fiance Kate Kopelansky; William West, who was short-sighted, his brother and Louis Stansley; Joseph Lave, who wasn't short-sighted but found it so dark that he had trouble finding the door to get back in after leaving for a smoke; and, of course, Louis Diemschitz.

Now frankly if some people believe that this gives the impression of a busy club all I can say is that they really ought to get out more!

It's also worth considering Evans and Rumbelow (2006) who note that the police subsequently searched just 28 individuals from the club, which also doesn't exactly convey the impression of a busy establishment.

And, of course, Fanny Mortimer, who lived just 3 doors from the club, claimed to be standing outside of her house for nearly the whole time between 12:30 and 1:00am and saw no one apart from Leon Goldstein and his black bag.

I also think that the evidence of Edward Spooner is useful. He arrived at the club around 1:05am after he saw Diemshitz and Kozebrodsky running up the street shouting "murder" and "police". And what did he find when he got there? The Whitechapel Vigilance Committee fully mobilized and ready for action? A baying, riotous mob of locals who had just spilled out of the nearby pubs and were now screaming for blood? The local area, including the Yard, being extensively searched? No, what he found was just 15 people quietly milling about in the passage. I think that just about says it all really!

Best wishes,

John

[John G]

I didn't say that Hanbury Street was sleepy compared to the other venues. I'm saying that Hanbury was decidedly sleepy compared to Berner Street. And I'm not wrong in saying so, for it plainly was.

But isn't the nature of the threat also important? I don't doubt that Berner Street was relatively busy but Stride was murdered at the front of a yard that was cloaked in almost complete darkness.

What risks was the killer actually taking? If someone exited the club all he had to do was step into Berner Street. And the person exiting the club might not even notice Stride's body, or might initially assume that she was drunk, as Diemshitz thought might be the case. Even if she'd been eviscerated he might not notice: the injuries to Nichols abdomen were only noticed once the body had been moved to the mortuary.

And what if he was disturbed by someone entering the yard in order to get to the club? All he has to do is to retreat further into the darkness. And Surely the first instinct of any individual who discovers the body is going to be to go to the club and raise the alarm, which is exactly what Diemshitz did; what he's not likely to do is to go plunging into the pitch-black darkness of the yard where a knife-wielding maniac might be lying in wait. The killer therefore makes his escape simply by stepping into Berner Street, which is why the murder location was ideal in some ways; it was dark enough to prevent easy detection but just a step or two away from the relative safety of Berner Street.

Of course, at this point a heavily populated Berner Street, or general locality, work to the killers advantage, as he can simply mingle with the crowd and just act casually, whilst any pursuers are busily looking for a man with a leather apron, carrying a bloodied knife and a black bag and displaying a crazed grin!

Even if the killer decided to confront any inquisitive individual entering or exiting the club I doubt he would have faced much resistance: the instinct of most of the locals seems to have been to mind there own business. Schwartz and Pipeman were easily deterred simply by the shout of "Lipski" and Lawende, Levy and Harris don't exactly strike me as three individuals who were itching for a confrontation with a knife-wielding maniac.

In fact, I doubt if even shouts of murder would have attracted that much attention: it didn't at miller's Court, where such exclamations were considered commonplace.

in contrast, at Mitre Square I doubt if either PCs Harvey or Watkins would be likely to run away, simply because the killer shouted "Lipski" at them. Clearly that would have represented a far riskier encounter.

Best wishes,

John

[Fisherman]

Hello Fisherman,

At about 8:30 around 100 people attended a discussion at the Berner Street Club, however, at about 11:30pm the talk ended and most people left, leaving about 20 to 30 individuals who stayed behind.

Between 11:30pm and 1:00am, a period of one and half hours, Begg and Bennett (2012) identify just 7 individuals who either entered or left the club: Morris Eagle and his fiance Kate Kopelansky; William West, who was short-sighted, his brother and Louis Stansley; Joseph Lave, who wasn't short-sighted but found it so dark that he had trouble finding the door to get back in after leaving for a smoke; and, of course, Louis Diemschitz.

Now frankly if some people believe that this gives the impression of a busy club all I can say is that they really ought to get out more!

It's also worth considering Evans and Rumbelow (2006) who note that the police subsequently searched just 28 individuals from the club, which also doesn't exactly convey the impression of a busy establishment.

And, of course, Fanny Mortimer, who lived just 3 doors from the club, claimed to be standing outside of her house for nearly the whole time between 12:30 and 1:00am and saw no one apart from Leon Goldstein and his black bag.

I also think that the evidence of Edward Spooner is useful. He arrived at the club around 1:05am after he saw Diemshitz and Kozebrodsky running up the street shouting "murder" and "police". And what did he find when he got there? The Whitechapel Vigilance Committee fully mobilized and ready for action? A baying, riotous mob of locals who had just spilled out of the nearby pubs and were now screaming for blood? The local area, including the Yard, being extensively searched? No, what he found was just 15 people quietly milling about in the passage. I think that just about says it all really!

Best wishes,

John

Yes, John, too much has been said about the bustling club and how it would prevent people bent on murder to operate in the vicinity of it. All the material we have seems to point something totally different from clubmembers that took to the street unanimously - or even trickled out - at the time Stride was attacked and killed. Apparently, they stayed put in the clubhouse, and there is every reason to think that they would leave more or less together at a later stage.

All the best,
Fisherman

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Between 1am and 4am the streets would be at their quietest. That's when a kill in a dark corner of a street would be preferable, as the killer would have a constant view of his escape routes. Earlier or later, killing in a yard would provide the seclusion unavailable in the streets, but would carry its own risks when it came to escape. Do the timings of the murders bear that out? I think so.

Like I said in several threads, sleep patterns were different in those days.
People would sleep two 4 hour per night, sometimes separated by as much as 3 hours of activities.

But you're right, after the murder of Chapman, one of the big effect of the Whitechapel Fiend was that most people stayed indoor past sunset . I guess that's a reason why he decided to strike earlier.

[Fisherman]

Like I said in several threads, sleep patterns were different in those days.
People would sleep two 4 hour per night, sometimes separated by as much as 3 hours of activities.

But you're right, after the murder of Chapman, one of the big effect of the Whitechapel Fiend was that most people stayed indoor past sunset . I guess that's a reason why he decided to strike earlier.

Take note, if you will, that the early murders were committed on a Saturday night - the working manīs day off. That tells them apart from the other ones, and the killer may have struck at the end of a night out.

They were followed by the Kelly murder that probably was a late night murder once again. So the sequence could well be one where the killer strikes in the late hours on working days but in the early ones on his day off.

And yes, I do have a suggestion who that pattern fits...

The best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Hi Sir John,

Not sure where your data on East End sleep patterns comes from, but pubs closed around midnight and markets opened around 5am, in between there was not much commercial activity going on and therefore little reason for people to be out of doors.

MrB

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Sir John,

Not sure where your data on East End sleep patterns comes from, but pubs closed around midnight and markets opened around 5am, in between there was not much commercial activity going on and therefore little reason for people to be out of doors.

MrB

The amount of truly homeless people, people working shifts, butchers readying their meat for the market, street prostitutes and vagrants and drunks suggest that there was indeed steady street foot traffic throughout the night on those streets. Plus there were what is now known as Booze Cans here in Canada active at that time....illegal pubs,.... and private clubs, who had no real restrictions as to when they had to stop serving booze.

There was at one time back then such a place in Mitre Square I believe.

Cheers

[MrBarnett]

Hi Michael,

Shifts? Sounds like large-scale industry. Not much of that in Spitalfields.

Drunks? Lots after the pubs had turned out. But not all night.

Slaughtermen? Perhaps, there were a few small-scale slaughterhouses in the East End. But nothing compared to Islington, say, where it was on an industrial scale.

Drinking dens? No doubt there were some, but very few in comparison with the pubs.

Homeless? There are plenty of homeless people in London today, but they tend not to wander the streets all night long. They need sleep as much as anyone else and in the wee small hours are tucked up in doorways, parks etc as they would have been in 1888.

The hours between 1 and 4 were the quietest of any 24 hrs. The streets weren't empty, but they were at their most quiet .

MrB