Bucks Row Scenarios

[Tani]

Given how messy the events and timings of events in Bucks Row are, can anyone compile a likely list of how it maybe went down?

We seem to have:


1. Lechmere finds Nichols. Dr. thinks she's not been dead more than ~30 minutes, which is roughly the duration of Neil's beat, if I'm right. This gives Ripper a good enough time window.

2. Robert Paul comes upon Lech's heels, also on his way to work, Lech tells Paul about the woman, be she dead or alive.

3. They tell Mizen about a possible dead body, but Mizen doesn't give two ****s and keeps knocking people up, and is somehow led to believe there's already a PO at the scene, whom no-one else claims to have mentioned.

4. Lo, there is a PO at the scene. ????

5. Neil, at the scene, tells Thain, not Mizen. Which PO is closer? Mizen or Thain?

6. Weird lost cape business?

7. Schrödinger's Slaughterers both do and don't know about a dead body. Both are and aren't still working.

8. Dr pronounces life extinct.


What's going on?

[Geddy2112]

Erm... Lechmere walked along Bucks row between 3:30am and 3:45am. He found what looked like a tarpaulin against the side of the road when he walked from the north side of the road to the middle he noticed it was a woman, possibly dead or drunk and may have been outraged. At this point he noticed Robert Paul approaching tapped him on the shoulder and suggested they looked together. There are some discrepancies here as to who said what regarding propping up the body but then they both decided to go find a Policeman. They found Mizen, told him about what they had seen, continued off to work. Mizen went to Bucks Row by which time PC Neil had already arrived there via his beat.

[FrankO]

Hi Tani,

Here’s my (long) list.

• Lechmere sees something lying on the opposite side of the street, which he, at first, thinks might be a tarpaulin sheet. Then, while crossing the street, he sees it’s the figure of a woman.
• He then hears someone coming. This someone is, of course, Paul.
• Lechmere waits for Paul and together they walk over to the body.
• They examine the body shortly and then leave it in search of a copper.
• Paul & Lechmere arrive at where Mizen is (the end of Hanbury Street).
• At around the same time Neil discovers the body.
• Very shortly afterwards Neil hears Thain pass Brady Street and flags him down with his lantern.
• Thain arrives at crime spot, where he sees the body and Neil immediately sends him for the doctor.
• Some short time after Thain has left, Neil spots Mizen and flags him down with his lantern, as well.
• Shortly afterwards Mizen arrives at crime spot and Neil sends him immediately for the ambulance at the Bethnal Green station, some 920 meters away from the crime scene.
• Thain arrives at the doctor’s.
• Sergeant Kirby arrives and one or two other constables. And two or three (work)men arrive, too.
• Neil rings the bell at Essex Wharf and Walter Purkiss opens a window. He’s able to see the deceased and that there are two or three men there besides three or four constables.
• About the same time St. Kirby knocks at Mrs. Green door and she also opens her window. She, too, sees the body of deceased lying on the ground and three or four constables and two or three other men.
• Thain returns with doctor Llewellyn.
• Thain receives orders to remain at the spot to wait for Spratling after the body will have been removed.
• Because Thain doesn’t know how long he has to wait for Spratling and before Nichols is moved to the mortuary in Pavillion Yard, Thain goes to the slaughterhouse in Winthrop Street to fetch his cape and tells the men there’s a woman murdered in Buck’s Row.
• In this same period (from Thain returning with the doctor to him going to the slaughterhouse) Mizen returns with the ambulance.
• Two of the 3 slaughtermen go to the crime spot and remain there until the body of Nichols is removed and taken to the mortuary in Pavilion Yard. They remain some 10 minutes.
• After a man passes Mulshaw and tells him he believes a woman is murdered in the street, Mulshaw also goes to have a look. He sees the body of deceased lying on the ground and three or four policemen and five or six working men standing around it.
• The body is put on the ambulance by Thain and another constable and carried away by Neil, Kirby and Mizen.
• Around this same point Inspector Spratling receives information about the murder when in Hackney Road, over 1 km from the crime spot. He first goes to the station and then to Buck’s Row.
• The son of Mrs. Green washes the blood away with a pail of water with Thain present.
• Spratling arrives at the scene and is shown by Thain where the body had lain.
• Spratling then goes to the mortuary and finds the body on an ambulance in the yard. It had been placed there because the keys, which had been sent for, had not yet arrived.
• While waiting, Spratling takes a description of the dead woman.
• Robert Mann arrives with the keys, after which the body is put on the floor of the mortuary.
• Spratling discovers the injuries to the abdomen, and he sends for Dr. Llewellyn.
• Dr. Llewellyn is summoned to the mortuary to see about the abdominal wounds.
• Dr. Llewellyn arrives at the mortuary and makes an examination lasting about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.

Of course, it's not always easy to determine the precise sequence of each and every coming & going, so I'm not claiming that the order above must be correct, but there you go...

All the best,
Frank

[Elamarna]

Hi Tani,

Here’s my (long) list.

• Lechmere sees something lying on the opposite side of the street, which he, at first, thinks might be a tarpaulin sheet. Then, while crossing the street, he sees it’s the figure of a woman.
• He then hears someone coming. This someone is, of course, Paul.
• Lechmere waits for Paul and together they walk over to the body.
• They examine the body shortly and then leave it in search of a copper.
• Paul & Lechmere arrive at where Mizen is (the end of Hanbury Street).
• At around the same time Neil discovers the body.
• Very shortly afterwards Neil hears Thain pass Brady Street and flags him down with his lantern.
• Thain arrives at crime spot, where he sees the body and Neil immediately sends him for the doctor.
• Some short time after Thain has left, Neil spots Mizen and flags him down with his lantern, as well.
• Shortly afterwards Mizen arrives at crime spot and Neil sends him immediately for the ambulance at the Bethnal Green station, some 920 meters away from the crime scene.
• Thain arrives at the doctor’s.
• Sergeant Kirby arrives and one or two other constables. And two or three (work)men arrive, too.
• Neil rings the bell at Essex Wharf and Walter Purkiss opens a window. He’s able to see the deceased and that there are two or three men there besides three or four constables.
• About the same time St. Kirby knocks at Mrs. Green door and she also opens her window. She, too, sees the body of deceased lying on the ground and three or four constables and two or three other men.
• Thain returns with doctor Llewellyn.
• Thain receives orders to remain at the spot to wait for Spratling after the body will have been removed.
• Because Thain doesn’t know how long he has to wait for Spratling and before Nichols is moved to the mortuary in Pavillion Yard, Thain goes to the slaughterhouse in Winthrop Street to fetch his cape and tells the men there’s a woman murdered in Buck’s Row.
• In this same period (from Thain returning with the doctor to him going to the slaughterhouse) Mizen returns with the ambulance.
• Two of the 3 slaughtermen go to the crime spot and remain there until the body of Nichols is removed and taken to the mortuary in Pavilion Yard. They remain some 10 minutes.
• After a man passes Mulshaw and tells him he believes a woman is murdered in the street, Mulshaw also goes to have a look. He sees the body of deceased lying on the ground and three or four policemen and five or six working men standing around it.
• The body is put on the ambulance by Thain and another constable and carried away by Neil, Kirby and Mizen.
• Around this same point Inspector Spratling receives information about the murder when in Hackney Road, over 1 km from the crime spot. He first goes to the station and then to Buck’s Row.
• The son of Mrs. Green washes the blood away with a pail of water with Thain present.
• Spratling arrives at the scene and is shown by Thain where the body had lain.
• Spratling then goes to the mortuary and finds the body on an ambulance in the yard. It had been placed there because the keys, which had been sent for, had not yet arrived.
• While waiting, Spratling takes a description of the dead woman.
• Robert Mann arrives with the keys, after which the body is put on the floor of the mortuary.
• Spratling discovers the injuries to the abdomen, and he sends for Dr. Llewellyn.
• Dr. Llewellyn is summoned to the mortuary to see about the abdominal wounds.
• Dr. Llewellyn arrives at the mortuary and makes an examination lasting about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.

Of course, it's not always easy to determine the precise sequence of each and every coming & going, so I'm not claiming that the order above must be correct, but there you go...

All the best,
Frank

I would only question ONE point, that being at what point Thain collects his cape, but otherwise that's very fine.

Its much in keeping with my views in INSIDE BUCKS ROW.
For those who have not read it, there is a fairly detailed timeline in graphical form.
And of course the whole murder is covered in greater detail than anywhere else.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Given how messy the events and timings of events in Bucks Row are, can anyone compile a likely list of how it maybe went down?

We seem to have:


1. Lechmere finds Nichols. Dr. thinks she's not been dead more than ~30 minutes, which is roughly the duration of Neil's beat, if I'm right. This gives Ripper a good enough time window.

2. Robert Paul comes upon Lech's heels, also on his way to work, Lech tells Paul about the woman, be she dead or alive.

3. They tell Mizen about a possible dead body, but Mizen doesn't give two ****s and keeps knocking people up, and is somehow led to believe there's already a PO at the scene, whom no-one else claims to have mentioned.

4. Lo, there is a PO at the scene. ????

5. Neil, at the scene, tells Thain, not Mizen. Which PO is closer? Mizen or Thain?

6. Weird lost cape business?

7. Schrödinger's Slaughterers both do and don't know about a dead body. Both are and aren't still working.

8. Dr pronounces life extinct.


What's going on?

Not trying to push my book, but it does give a very full account of the Bucks Row Murder.

Any specific questions I am more than happy to try and answer, but clearly it will never be in the detail in that work.
Jeff, Frank and Dusty are all very good on Bucks Row, so are many of the others here such as Fiver , Geddy and Herlock are too.
Herlock posted a really good thread a few weeks back.


Steve

[FrankO]

I would only question ONE point, that being at what point Thain collects his cape, but otherwise that's very fine.

Its much in keeping with my views in INSIDE BUCKS ROW.
For those who have not read it, there is a fairly detailed timeline in graphical form.
And of course the whole murder is covered in greater detail than anywhere else.


Steve

Hi Steve,

I put that point there, because I think that he wants/has to be back on the spot before Neil leaves with Kirby and Mizen to take the body to the mortuary. But, of course, he may also have left for his cape after Nichols was taken to the mortuary. After all, there were other PC's on the spot that could have guarded it while Thain was fetching his cape. Where would/have you put Thain going for his cape?

Cheers,
Frank

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I put that point there, because I think that he wants/has to be back on the spot before Neil leaves with Kirby and Mizen to take the body to the mortuary. But, of course, he may also have left for his cape after Nichols was taken to the mortuary. After all, there were other PC's on the spot that could have guarded it while Thain was fetching his cape. Where would/have you put Thain going for his cape?

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank.

I don't rule out that he grabed it on his way to Llewellyn, it's possible I suggest.
It largely depends on the route he took to Llewellyn, I wonder if he went to board school, down Winthrop to Nelson, and out onto Whitechapel road.
Again it one for which there are several possible routes.
If not then I place it directly after he arrives back with the doctor.
But it's one of those bits that's really open to many possibilities

Steve

[Tani]

Hi Tani,

Here’s my (long) list.

• Lechmere sees something lying on the opposite side of the street, which he, at first, thinks might be a tarpaulin sheet. Then, while crossing the street, he sees it’s the figure of a woman.
• He then hears someone coming. This someone is, of course, Paul.
• Lechmere waits for Paul and together they walk over to the body.
• They examine the body shortly and then leave it in search of a copper.
• Paul & Lechmere arrive at where Mizen is (the end of Hanbury Street).
• At around the same time Neil discovers the body.
• Very shortly afterwards Neil hears Thain pass Brady Street and flags him down with his lantern.
• Thain arrives at crime spot, where he sees the body and Neil immediately sends him for the doctor.
• Some short time after Thain has left, Neil spots Mizen and flags him down with his lantern, as well.
• Shortly afterwards Mizen arrives at crime spot and Neil sends him immediately for the ambulance at the Bethnal Green station, some 920 meters away from the crime scene.
• Thain arrives at the doctor’s.
• Sergeant Kirby arrives and one or two other constables. And two or three (work)men arrive, too.
• Neil rings the bell at Essex Wharf and Walter Purkiss opens a window. He’s able to see the deceased and that there are two or three men there besides three or four constables.
• About the same time St. Kirby knocks at Mrs. Green door and she also opens her window. She, too, sees the body of deceased lying on the ground and three or four constables and two or three other men.
• Thain returns with doctor Llewellyn.
• Thain receives orders to remain at the spot to wait for Spratling after the body will have been removed.
• Because Thain doesn’t know how long he has to wait for Spratling and before Nichols is moved to the mortuary in Pavillion Yard, Thain goes to the slaughterhouse in Winthrop Street to fetch his cape and tells the men there’s a woman murdered in Buck’s Row.
• In this same period (from Thain returning with the doctor to him going to the slaughterhouse) Mizen returns with the ambulance.
• Two of the 3 slaughtermen go to the crime spot and remain there until the body of Nichols is removed and taken to the mortuary in Pavilion Yard. They remain some 10 minutes.
• After a man passes Mulshaw and tells him he believes a woman is murdered in the street, Mulshaw also goes to have a look. He sees the body of deceased lying on the ground and three or four policemen and five or six working men standing around it.
• The body is put on the ambulance by Thain and another constable and carried away by Neil, Kirby and Mizen.
• Around this same point Inspector Spratling receives information about the murder when in Hackney Road, over 1 km from the crime spot. He first goes to the station and then to Buck’s Row.
• The son of Mrs. Green washes the blood away with a pail of water with Thain present.
• Spratling arrives at the scene and is shown by Thain where the body had lain.
• Spratling then goes to the mortuary and finds the body on an ambulance in the yard. It had been placed there because the keys, which had been sent for, had not yet arrived.
• While waiting, Spratling takes a description of the dead woman.
• Robert Mann arrives with the keys, after which the body is put on the floor of the mortuary.
• Spratling discovers the injuries to the abdomen, and he sends for Dr. Llewellyn.
• Dr. Llewellyn is summoned to the mortuary to see about the abdominal wounds.
• Dr. Llewellyn arrives at the mortuary and makes an examination lasting about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.

Of course, it's not always easy to determine the precise sequence of each and every coming & going, so I'm not claiming that the order above must be correct, but there you go...

All the best,
Frank

This is very useful, thank you

[Tani]

I would only question ONE point, that being at what point Thain collects his cape, but otherwise that's very fine.

Its much in keeping with my views in INSIDE BUCKS ROW.
For those who have not read it, there is a fairly detailed timeline in graphical form.
And of course the whole murder is covered in greater detail than anywhere else.


Steve

Will need to buy this book

[FrankO]

Hi Frank.

I don't rule out that he grabed it on his way to Llewellyn, it's possible I suggest.
It largely depends on the route he took to Llewellyn, I wonder if he went to board school, down Winthrop to Nelson, and out onto Whitechapel road.
Again it one for which there are several possible routes.
If not then I place it directly after he arrives back with the doctor.
But it's one of those bits that's really open to many possibilities

Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response. In theory, yes, there are a few possibilities as to when he went for his cape and how (route-wise).

However, going by Thain's various statements, I can only conclude he must have gone for it after receiving orders to wait for 'his inspector' and he specified that by saying that he went to get his cape because he didn't know where Spratling would send him. That makes sense, so I go with that. Of course, we don't know when Thain got his orders to wait for his inspector. He probably got them from Kirby, who, as we know, had arrived while Thain was fetching Llewellyn.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

This is very useful, thank you

You're welkome, Tani.

[Elamarna]

Will need to buy this book

Its Ebook only, 730 pages at present, next update end of May, all updates included in price
details can be found in the non fiction section on here, or pm me.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response. In theory, yes, there are a few possibilities as to when he went for his cape and how (route-wise).

However, going by Thain's various statements, I can only conclude he must have gone for it after receiving orders to wait for 'his inspector' and he specified that by saying that he went to get his cape because he didn't know where Spratling would send him. That makes sense, so I go with that. Of course, we don't know when Thain got his orders to wait for his inspector. He probably got them from Kirby, who, as we know, had arrived while Thain was fetching Llewellyn.

Cheers,
Frank

Frank,
I can go with any of the suggestions.

Steve

[Geddy2112]

Will need to buy this book

Well with 'delivery' within an hour or so since it's an eBook it would be churlish not to. Very well balanced view of events that basically takes you right to the scene of the crime and leaves you there.

[Tani]

Well with 'delivery' within an hour or so since it's an eBook it would be churlish not to. Very well balanced view of events that basically takes you right to the scene of the crime and leaves you there.

Downloaded and reading it now. Very comprehensive; I already like this