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  • 82 Berner Street

    Hi all



    I have identified a particularly interesting article relating to a serious incident that occurred in Berner Street a few weeks before Stride was murdered.


    The incident took place inside a chemist shop located at number 82 Berner Street; on the corner of Berner Street and Ellen Street.

    It involved the shopkeeper called John Simkin; who was the victim of an attempted murder.

    The man that attacked him was a builder called William Seaman; a builder from Princes Street in Whitechapel.


    The attack itself isn't the main reason why I was drawn to the article; it was the fact that a man was almost murdered inside a Chemist on Berner Street



    Firstly, the location; it was a chemist located on the corner of Ellen Street and Berner Street
    secondly, the timing...

    The attack occurred at 11.50pm, just before Mr Simkin the chemist was about to close up for the night.

    This is important because it tells us there was a Chemist open up until midnight.

    And if it was open until midnight on the night of the attack on Mr Simkin, then it would fair to say that it would have also been open on the night of the Stride murder


    Now, let's add the witness Marshall.

    He claimed to have seen Stride with a man within close proximity to his house on Berner Street.

    The couple were standing north of his position between him and the junction with Faircloth Street.

    There was also another public house just south of where Marshall lived; namely the George IV pub

    This pub is located approximately half way between the junctions with the Berner Street junctions meeting Faircloth Street in the north and Ellen Street in the south.

    I have suggested previously if the couple seen by Marshall was Stride, then it places her SOUTH of Faircloth Street.

    And what is south of Faircloth Street that could be important as to why Stride was there?

    Either the George IV pub...


    OR the Chemist as 82 Berner Street; on the junction with Ellen Street.


    But why is this relevant you may ask?


    Well...

    What could you buy at a Chemist?


    CACHOU


    My question is...

    Is Simkins Chemist located at no.82 Berner Street the shop where Stride obtained her Cachou from?

    If so, then she would have needed to have bought them before midnight when the shop closed.



    My hypothesis is this...


    After leaving the Bricklayers Arms Stride and her companion headed toward Berner Street

    However, they entered Berner Street by walking East along Ellen Street and then turning left into Berner Street and walking North, either TO the George IV Public House, or PAST the pub. Either way, they stopped at the Chemist on the corner of the junction where Ellen Street meets Berner Street and purchased some Cachou.

    Cachou used for the purposes of sweetening the breath.

    Cachou were primarily marketed and aimed at FEMALE SMOKERS, who could enjoy a smoke before taking some Cachou to take away the TASTE and the SMELL of the cigarette/Cigar. They could also be used before or after kissing IF one of both parties were smokers and the other perhaps wasn't.

    Let's continue...


    So, Stride and her Bricklayer's Arm companion walk along Ellen St, go into the chemist to buy some Cachou from a place that would have SOLD CACHOU (Unlike Packer's FRUIT shop)

    After purchasing the Cachou, they walk north and are then spotted by Marshall just moments after they have walked past his location. I believe had Marshall observed the street minutes before, he would have seen Stride and her companion walk past him.

    After the "You'd say anything but your prayers" line, they continue walking north towards Faircloth Street and then cross the junction and enter the northern section of Berner Street by the Nelson Beer House.


    The next question is... did they have time to go anywhere BETWEEN being seen leaving the Bricklayer's Arms, to my hypothesis of them walking EAST along Ellen Street and then purchasing the Cachou from the Chemist BEFORE midnight?

    If they did have time, then where did they go?


    Is Ellen Street significant?

    Furthermore, where was 22 Ellen Street located in relation to the Chemist on the corner of the junction with Berner Street?


    Does Stride's route along Ellen Street and into Berner Street from the south add any new dynamic to the story told by Schwartz?


    We know that Stride had Cachou in her hand.

    I would suggest that the Simkins Chemist is where she or her companion purchased them.

    If my hypothesis is correct, then it adds significance to the sighting made by Marshall and increases the likelihood that Marshall saw Stride with her companion.


    Another question springs to mind...

    How closely does the man seen by Marshall resemble the man seen with Stride outside the Bricklayer's arms?


    But there is one other tantalizing question...


    IF Stride and her companion DID purchase Cachou from the chemist at no.82 Berner Street, then WHY did Mr Simkin not report it?

    There is no evidence to suggest my hypothesis is true...however...


    Did Packer change his story to one whereby he witnessed Stride and her companion buy grapes from him shortly before the murder, just as a perfect way to divert attention from the real source of the items in Strides hand; the chemist at no.82



    And finally...was Schwartz's story also made up because the man who played the part of Schwartz was connected with the murder itself...or another hired hand to come in and fabricate and make up an entirely fake account of what truly transpired the night Stride was killed.



    Lots to discuss



    RD
    Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 04-16-2024, 11:48 PM.
    "Great minds, don't think alike"

  • #2
    Here's the article in question...


    Click image for larger version

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    Fascinating.


    RD


    "Great minds, don't think alike"

    Comment


    • #3
      And here's the map...

      Notice number 82 Berner Street, on the corner of the junction (at the bottom of the page)...

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Berner Street map 2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	142.4 KB ID:	833011
      No. 82 Berner Street is WHERE i believe Stride obtained the Cachou found in her hand.


      RD
      Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 04-16-2024, 11:32 PM.
      "Great minds, don't think alike"

      Comment


      • #4
        Just to confirm the attack on John Simkin in the Chemist shop at 82 Berner Street occurred on Saturday 8th September 1888 at 11.50pm.

        The perpetrator was named Seigman or Seaman.

        He was found guilty and sentenced to 7 years penal servitude.



        RD
        Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 04-17-2024, 12:12 AM.
        "Great minds, don't think alike"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
          Hi all



          I have identified a particularly interesting article relating to a serious incident that occurred in Berner Street a few weeks before Stride was murdered.


          The incident took place inside a chemist shop located at number 82 Berner Street; on the corner of Berner Street and Ellen Street.

          It involved the shopkeeper called John Simkin; who was the victim of an attempted murder.

          The man that attacked him was a builder called William Seaman; a builder from Princes Street in Whitechapel.
          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
            Ah that's fabulous, at least the story has been documented before.

            But as I say, the story itself isn't important in the slightest; it's the fact there was a chemist in Berner Street that would have sold Cachou.

            As far as I am aware, nobody has made the link between the chemist with the cachou that Stride had?

            She must have got them from somewhere


            IF she was present at the chemist at number 82 before it closes at midnight, then it supports her walking north with the man seen by Marshall.

            Let's also remember that the behaviour of the couple seen by Marshall is very similar to that of the couple seen outside the bricklayers arms.

            So my point isn't about the story of the attempted murder inside the chemist; because that has nothing to do with Stride or the Ripper whatsoever...

            But the location of the chemist shop on Berner Street I believe IS relevant to what happened in the lead up to Strides murder.


            After leaving the Bricklayers Arms I believe she walked with her companion towards Berner Street, but not via the Commercial Road.
            I believe she entered Berner Street via Ellen Street in the south and then walked UP Berner Street, with the sighting by Marshall being an authentic identification.

            RD
            "Great minds, don't think alike"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

              Is Ellen Street significant?

              Furthermore, where was 22 Ellen Street located in relation to the Chemist on the corner of the junction with Berner Street?


              Does Stride's route along Ellen Street and into Berner Street from the south add any new dynamic to the story told by Schwartz?
              Wickerman posted the following image.

              Click image for larger version

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ID:	833017

              Up until recently, I believed that 22 Ellen St was the new address, that is, the one Schwartz's wife had expected to move to during his absence. I now believe that Swanson's report states his address as of September 30, that is, it was his old address.

              As Schwartz had reached the gateway when the altercation supposedly occurs, he would have no reason to cross the road had he wanted to avoid it. Yet, cross it he did. This is odd, as most if not all of the dwellings on Berner St, south of Fairclough St, were on the club side, that is, the side he entered the street on. Why then, did Schwartz cross over?

              But there is one other tantalizing question...


              IF Stride and her companion DID purchase Cachou from the chemist at no.82 Berner Street, then WHY did Mr Simkin not report it?
              Simkin was not able to appear in court, presumably due to having had his head smashed with a hammer. He probably hadn't returned to work by the night of the double event.​
              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                Ah that's fabulous, at least the story has been documented before.

                But as I say, the story itself isn't important in the slightest; it's the fact there was a chemist in Berner Street that would have sold Cachou.

                As far as I am aware, nobody has made the link between the chemist with the cachou that Stride had?

                She must have got them from somewhere
                Stride's purpose for going to Berner St is a mystery. Perhaps she did want to go to that chemist, but then why does she hang around?

                IF she was present at the chemist at number 82 before it closes at midnight, then it supports her walking north with the man seen by Marshall.
                Marshall: They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street. They would not then pass No. 40 (the club).

                That would be south.

                Let's also remember that the behaviour of the couple seen by Marshall is very similar to that of the couple seen outside the bricklayers arms.

                So my point isn't about the story of the attempted murder inside the chemist; because that has nothing to do with Stride or the Ripper whatsoever...

                But the location of the chemist shop on Berner Street I believe IS relevant to what happened in the lead up to Strides murder.
                I posted that link as a convenience.

                After leaving the Bricklayers Arms I believe she walked with her companion towards Berner Street, but not via the Commercial Road.
                I believe she entered Berner Street via Ellen Street in the south and then walked UP Berner Street, with the sighting by Marshall being an authentic identification.

                RD
                The men at the pub said the pair left, going in the direction of Berner St. How do you suggest they managed to avoid Commercial Rd?
                Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  Stride's purpose for going to Berner St is a mystery. Perhaps she did want to go to that chemist, but then why does she hang around?



                  Marshall: They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street. They would not then pass No. 40 (the club).

                  That would be south.



                  I posted that link as a convenience.



                  The men at the pub said the pair left, going in the direction of Berner St. How do you suggest they managed to avoid Commercial Rd?
                  Excellent points!

                  Firstly, your correction of the couple seen by Marshall heading south AWAY from the murder location, completely changes the dynamic and chronology, but not necessarily in a bad way.

                  Interestingly the couple seen by Marshall were spotted around 11.45pm.

                  He went indoors around midnight.

                  But he stayed outside to notice them walk off toward Ellen Street.

                  The issue I have with this however is the following ..


                  Marshall lived on the West side of Berner Street at number 64

                  He claims the couple were standing opposite number 58 (this varies depending on different sources) which is still on the same side of the road as his house.

                  Notice he doesn't say outside numbers 57 or 55, which would indicate they were on the opposite side of the road.

                  His evidence shows that the couple were standing on the same side of the road as his house.

                  But crucially they walked "In the middle of the road"

                  Why?

                  Well, if he was accurate and truthful in his account, then they would have walked right past him as he stood at number 64.

                  But he makes no mention of the couple having walked past him

                  Why?

                  Did they walk in the middle of the road to avoid him standing on his doorstep?

                  Or did they walk in the middle of the road to avoid the George IV pub located at number 68, on the corner.

                  If they did indeed walk towards Ellen Street then it may have been specifically to get Cachou at the chemist on the corner at number 82 just before it closed at midnight.

                  Notice that Marshall says they walked in the direction of Ellen Street but nothing further...

                  That would indicate he went inside BEFORE he saw where they went as they walked TOWARD Ellen Street.

                  Now he went in around midnight, and so that could cover the time parameter from 11.55pm - 12.05am.


                  That could give the couple just enough time to get to the chemist BEFORE it closed at midnight.

                  And so I clearly need to amend my hypothesis


                  They were in Berner Street just NORTH of the George IV pub at 68. They had just left the pub and had walked north up to 58 when they were spotted by Marshall.

                  They are there for some time, which would indicate MORE than 5 minutes.

                  So why did they stop opposite 58?

                  For a good old fashioned smooch.

                  But they choose to go to the chemist on the corner just before it closes and so head south, but see Marshall and so give walk in the middle of the road OR they walk in the middle of the road to avoid the pub at 68.

                  Why?

                  Well what are the reasons to avoid a pub around midnight?

                  Well, possibly because you've already been in there and have left earlier.

                  I believe that Marshall goes inside as he sees the couple walk TOWARD Ellen Street.

                  But he doesn't see them go into the Chemist on the corner to buy some items including the Cachou.


                  After they leave the chemist they then WALK BACK UP Berner Street, past the George IV pub and the toward the murder site. That would make their arrival anytime from 12.05am.

                  But...

                  After buying the Cachou, did they go anywhere else?

                  It's interesting that if you stood outside the chemist and threw a stone, it could easily hit the window of 22 Ellen Street.

                  I had no idea that the address connected with Schwartz was so close to a shop that would have sold an item found in Strides hand.

                  When you add the fact that nobody saw or HEARD ANYTHING that Schwartz claimed he saw or heard AND that NOBODY saw Schwartz either, then it perhaps makes his account a little unusual.

                  In terms of why he crosses the road; I always thought he crossed over to the Board School side to avoid Pipeman standing on the corner by the Nelson beer house?

                  But I am not sure of that and it is intriguing as to why he chose to cross over the road.

                  You also make another crucial point about Mr Simkin. It's likely that he would not have been able to run his chemist shop after having been savagely beaten and almost murdered, but I still believe that his shop would have been open on the night of the Stride murder, but perhaps being run temporarily by another family member.

                  Another question would be...

                  IF Stride and her companion DID buy Cachou from the chemist just before it closed at midnight, then WHY was it never reported? Or why did the shop assistant not tell the police?

                  Well imagine if you will that the person who was keeping the shop open was just standing in for Mr Simkin. But the person was a close family member who frankly had more important things to worry about with Simkin almost being murdered a few weeks earlier.

                  It perhaps gives a good reason why some people just don't want o get involved, especially if they have more important family issues to deal with.

                  All conjecture of course but hey ho as they say.


                  RD
                  ​​
                  Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 04-17-2024, 07:08 AM.
                  "Great minds, don't think alike"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If it's any consolation, Phil Sugden also thought Marshall was a valid witness.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                      Here's the article in question...


                      Click image for larger version

Name:	East_London_Observer_06_October_1888_0005_Clip.jpg
Views:	206
Size:	214.8 KB
ID:	833007
                      Click image for larger version

Name:	East_London_Observer_06_October_1888_0005_Clip (1).jpg
Views:	202
Size:	224.2 KB
ID:	833008
                      Click image for larger version

Name:	East_London_Observer_06_October_1888_0005_Clip (2).jpg
Views:	200
Size:	158.4 KB
ID:	833009

                      Fascinating.


                      RD

                      Very interesting thread!

                      Comment

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