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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    At the inquest Diemshitz was asked by the [Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow. From this we know That it was dark enough for anyone to have missed the body and that the whip prodding episode took place when the cart was passed the body.
    So the driver was past the body, above the body, and horizontally offset from the body, and yet the driver claims to have not only prodded the victim with his whip handle, but actually attempted to lift the object, before getting down from the cart! Who knew cart whip handles were as long as broomsticks?

    The Coroner also asked specifically What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. I find myself wondering why the disposition of the pony and cart has any relevance to the case.
    Because the position it was claimed to have been left in, makes no sense.

    A typical costermongers barrow was 7' long. A pony about 6' long. So that's 14', not counting any gap between the animal and cart. At the inquest, Wess said:

    The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.

    Each gate was about 4' wide, and Liz Stride's height was given as 5'5", depending on the source. The ends of her boots just made to behind the swing of the gates, so in the position she was found, she might be 4' in length, so including the gate, she is 9' from the gateway (position of the closed gates).

    It is not difficult to see that with the pony right outside the side door, the cart is going to be right beside the body. So what problems might that cause?

    Mrs D: ... I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. ... I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

    Diemschitz found his wife in the kitchen, and they went straight outside with the candle she had given him. She sees the body, and screams. The members rush downstairs and out into the yard. Where is the pony & cart?

    Re Julius Minsky: The utmost joviality was prevailing when a member rushed excitedly into the room, and shouted out that the body of a murdered woman had been found in the yard. The singing was at once stopped, and all present rushed downstairs in a state of the utmost alarm into the yard. The first thing he noticed was the pool of blood by the kitchen door, and then glancing up the yard to the spot where Mr. Diemschitz was holding a lighted match in his hand, he noticed the body of a woman stretched out by the side of the wall. He was very much frightened himself, and remained in the doorway. Even from there he could plainly see the terrible gash that had been made in the neck.

    Where is the pony & cart?

    Philip Krantz: I was in the back room from 9 o'clock on Saturday night until one of the members of the club came and told me there was a woman lying in the yard.

    In Arbeter Fraint, that member is Gilyarovsky - probably Kozebrodsky.

    C: When you went out into the yard was there any one round deceased?
    K: Yes, members of the club were near the woman, but there was no one there I did not know.


    So in near darkness, Krantz could recognize all those members referred to by Mrs D and Minsky? I don't think so. There seems to have been a period in which only a small number of members were around the body, and in AF, Diemschitz is not one of them.

    Who really discovered the body?
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      Because the position it was claimed to have been left in, makes no sense.
      Which should tell you there's something wrong with your info.

      A typical costermongers barrow was 7' long. A pony about 6' long. So that's 14', not counting any gap between the animal and cart.
      Watch this procession of Costermonger's carts.
      https://www.britishpathe.com/video/d...gers-cart-show

      I know myself Costermonger's used both two-wheel & four-wheel carts, so your "typical" doesn't work.
      If you choose to be so exacting you need to know which cart you are talking about.


      At the inquest, Wess said:

      The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.
      He didn't measure it, he was guessing. People are hardly ever correct when guessing.

      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

        So the driver was past the body, above the body, and horizontally offset from the body, and yet the driver claims to have not only prodded the victim with his whip handle, but actually attempted to lift the object, before getting down from the cart! Who knew cart whip handles were as long as broomsticks?
        Whips were quite long, over 6ft, there are plenty of archive photo's on the net.



        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post


          Where is the pony & cart?
          Why?

          So in near darkness, Krantz could recognize all those members referred to by Mrs D and Minsky? I don't think so. There seems to have been a period in which only a small number of members were around the body, and in AF, Diemschitz is not one of them.

          Who really discovered the body?
          Diemschitz left the scene to look for a policeman, who else is missing in the A.F. account?

          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Which should tell you there's something wrong with your info.
            What's wrong is that we do not have a single witness account, other the Diemschitz, that states or implies that the pony was left where it was claimed to be left, or that the cart was left in a position that would be implied by that location of the pony.

            Watch this procession of Costermonger's carts.
            https://www.britishpathe.com/video/d...gers-cart-show
            Carts from the 1920's. Most look like they could be close to 7' long, and some longer.

            I know myself Costermonger's used both two-wheel & four-wheel carts, so your "typical" doesn't work.
            Diemschitz: It is a two-wheeled barrow.

            If you choose to be so exacting you need to know which cart you are talking about.
            No I don't, because the exact feet and inches makes no practical difference. The members rushed out into the yard, from the side door. That part of the yard was extremely dark. No accidents. The pony & cart had magically disappeared.

            He didn't measure it, he was guessing. People are hardly ever correct when guessing.
            His words don't sound like he was guessing. Presumably you mean he guessed short? So what was the true distance?

            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Whips were quite long, over 6ft, there are plenty of archive photo's on the net.
            Show me a two-wheeled barrow whip, with a handle of that length, and I'll STFU.

            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Diemschitz left the scene to look for a policeman, who else is missing in the A.F. account?
            Then Krantz must have recognized all those members in the dark. As for who is missing, it's more a problem of who isn't missing. Krantz apparently didn't hear the steward's wife scream - someone had to go and alert him. In AF, that person was Gilyarovsky. Is that our friend Isaacs? So if Diemschitz has already left for police, then what is going on here...

            LD to press: A member named Isaacs went down into the yard with me, and we struck a match. We saw blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable. At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one in Commercial road.

            So LD left with IK. Meanwhile, the unnamed member spoken of by Minsky, must now be alerting the members upstairs...

            Eagle: I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time.

            Isaac and 15 others? Apparently not. We are not getting the real story of the discovery.
            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
              ...

              The pony & cart had magically disappeared.
              That's what I suspected you were implying, yet there are no grounds for that argument.

              His words don't sound like he was guessing. Presumably you mean he guessed short? So what was the true distance?
              The point is, you are making an argument based on a dimension that you know is only an estimate, yet you are treating it as accurate.

              Show me a two-wheeled barrow whip, with a handle of that length, and I'll STFU.
              You think whips were made to match the length of a cart?
              You'll find whips came in all length's; 18", 36-39", 5ft, 6ft ,8ft, 10-12ft, etc.
              How can anyone possibly claim Diemschitz couldn't prod the body with his whip when you have no idea what type of whip he had?
              Or, what type of cart he had for that matter.
              Have you truly looked to see how many different two-wheel carts were used by Costermonger's in those days?


              Then Krantz must have recognized all those members in the dark.
              Why is it so impossible for him to have known everyone who came out to the yard?
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                That's what I suspected you were implying, yet there are no grounds for that argument.
                I agree there are no grounds for supposing the pony & cart magically disappeared.

                The point is, you are making an argument based on a dimension that you know is only an estimate, yet you are treating it as accurate.
                I'm treating it as relative. You or anyone else can move the door to wherever you like - the pony moves with it.

                You think whips were made to match the length of a cart?
                You'll find whips came in all length's; 18", 36-39", 5ft, 6ft ,8ft, 10-12ft, etc.
                How can anyone possibly claim Diemschitz couldn't prod the body with his whip when you have no idea what type of whip he had?
                Or, what type of cart he had for that matter.
                Have you truly looked to see how many different two-wheel carts were used by Costermonger's in those days?
                I would suspect that from the smorgasbord of whips that Diemschitz apparently had access to, he would have chosen a whip that was fit for purpose, as opposed to fit for the narrative.

                You can substitute a shorter barrow if you like, but 7' is easily long enough to overlap the body, so a foot or two reduction is not going to change this. Although, if the entire cart is assumed to have gone past the body, then how long does the whip handle need to be?

                Why is it so impossible for him to have known everyone who came out to the yard?
                That's not what I'm arguing and you know it. It is rather fascinating how in AF, Gilyarovsky manages to see blood, apparently prior to seeing the body. We then find two newspapers with a report of a young lad discovering the body, who alerts a man known to Abraham Herschburg, but who has seemingly departed the scene. Fascinating, yet virtually ignored. I guess it just does not fit the narrative.
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • How do we know the pony and cart are blocking the door? All we know is that he moved them up by the door. Wouldn't it make the most sense that he would move them such that the back of the cart was beyond the door. In that case, it's well out of the way, no where near the body, and completely unworthy of further note. It clearly was there somewhere, and it clearly wasn't something anybody, the police included, felt worth a mention, so speculating its position was in a location that might interfere and therefore draw comment and then building a story around the lack of comment seems a bit circular. The lack of comment on it tells us it was not worth a mention, so its position must have been out of the way. Its position is roughly indicated to be in the vicinity of the door, which for something otherwise unworthy of note, would be deemed sufficient.

                  - Jeff

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                    How do we know the pony and cart are blocking the door? All we know is that he moved them up by the door. Wouldn't it make the most sense that he would move them such that the back of the cart was beyond the door. In that case, it's well out of the way, no where near the body, and completely unworthy of further note.
                    There is no subsequent movement. We are told by the secretary that the door was 18' from the gates. We know the width of the gates, and we know the approximate height of the victim in the death position. Her head is halfway to the door. There is only about 9' remaining. If the pony is left outside the door, then it's as though the inquest went like this...

                    C: Where did you leave the cart?
                    D: Right beside the victim.


                    It clearly was there somewhere, and it clearly wasn't something anybody, the police included, felt worth a mention, so speculating its position was in a location that might interfere and therefore draw comment and then building a story around the lack of comment seems a bit circular.
                    We know the approximate numbers, so I am merely inferring where the cart would have been, in relation to the victim. I don't see how it could be there, and I suppose that it was immediately parked down the back, and that rather than Diemschitz calling Kozebrodsky out into the yard, it was actually Kozebrodsky who became aware of the issue, a few minutes before Diemschitz arrived home.

                    The lack of comment on it tells us it was not worth a mention, so its position must have been out of the way. Its position is roughly indicated to be in the vicinity of the door, which for something otherwise unworthy of note, would be deemed sufficient.
                    It was not mentioned for the same reason it not discussed much now - because it is assumed that leaving the pony outside the door means the victim is cleared of obstruction. Yet that seems not to be the case, after we do some simple arithmetic.
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                      There is no subsequent movement. We are told by the secretary that the door was 18' from the gates. We know the width of the gates, and we know the approximate height of the victim in the death position. Her head is halfway to the door. There is only about 9' remaining. If the pony is left outside the door, then it's as though the inquest went like this...

                      C: Where did you leave the cart?
                      D: Right beside the victim.

                      ??? Her head is 1/2 way to the door, so 9 feet from the door. And if the pony and cart are parked, with the back of the cart by the door, then there's 9 feet between her head and the end of the cart. that's hardly right beside the victim.

                      What makes you think the head of the pony is by the door? Where does it say that, and why would you even consider that to be the case when clearly, if it were, it might indeed get a mention?



                      We know the approximate numbers, so I am merely inferring where the cart would have been, in relation to the victim. I don't see how it could be there, and I suppose that it was immediately parked down the back, and that rather than Diemschitz calling Kozebrodsky out into the yard, it was actually Kozebrodsky who became aware of the issue, a few minutes before Diemschitz arrived home.
                      Well, it clearly wasn't where you're implying it was. But something reasonable, like the back of the cart is just beyond the door, would fit his description, and make sense.


                      It was not mentioned for the same reason it not discussed much now - because it is assumed that leaving the pony outside the door means the victim is cleared of obstruction. Yet that seems not to be the case, after we do some simple arithmetic.
                      It wasn't mentioned because it wasn't of any importance. Pony and carts were just modes of transportation. If he had parked his car, they wouldn't go on about his car either, even if it was a rather nifty car. I can't fathom why it would be expected that his pony and cart would ever come up unless there were some concern that he ran over the body - which he didn't.

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        There is no subsequent movement. We are told by the secretary that the door was 18' from the gates. We know the width of the gates, and we know the approximate height of the victim in the death position. Her head is halfway to the door. There is only about 9' remaining. If the pony is left outside the door, then it's as though the inquest went like this...

                        C: Where did you leave the cart?
                        D: Right beside the victim.




                        We know the approximate numbers, so I am merely inferring where the cart would have been, in relation to the victim. I don't see how it could be there, and I suppose that it was immediately parked down the back, and that rather than Diemschitz calling Kozebrodsky out into the yard, it was actually Kozebrodsky who became aware of the issue, a few minutes before Diemschitz arrived home.



                        It was not mentioned for the same reason it not discussed much now - because it is assumed that leaving the pony outside the door means the victim is cleared of obstruction. Yet that seems not to be the case, after we do some simple arithmetic.

                        This one has to be the biggest non-issues in the whole of the case. Nothing can be inferred from it. It points to absolutely nothing. The cart was simply moved. Before they went off to get a Constable Louis might simply have asked one of the members to either move it to the bottom of the yard or to drive it round to where he stabled the horse. It didn’t get a mention for the same reason that Louis’ candle got no further mention. Because it was of no importance.

                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes



                        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                        “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          This one has to be the biggest non-issues in the whole of the case. Nothing can be inferred from it. It points to absolutely nothing. The cart was simply moved. Before they went off to get a Constable Louis might simply have asked one of the members to either move it to the bottom of the yard or to drive it round to where he stabled the horse. It didn’t get a mention for the same reason that Louis’ candle got no further mention. Because it was of no importance.
                          Before they went for police, is too late.
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            Before they went for police, is too late.
                            I can’t see why?
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes



                            “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                            “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                            Comment

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