chance for Sickert having seen MJK crime scene ?

[RivkahChaya]

Could somebody tell me exactly what painting we are talking about? while the mutilations to MJK are shocking, the actual position of he body isn't. It's not a difficult position to assume, and it's comfortable. It's slightly masturbatory looking, but that doesn't make it unusual, other than the fact that women are usually in private in that position. But it isn't like the body is twisted, with the abdomen facing one way, and the head another, or the arms are hanging off the bed. I always thought it was especially macabre that aside from the hand being in the abdominal cavity, instead of resting on the stomach, and the feet being just a little farther apart than might be natural, it was a position you could find a living woman resting in.

Do many of this forum members really think that Walter Sickert has seen Mary Kelly bedroom after her death, and use it as a motive for later paintings ?

Regards

Sorry if I'm being really bone-headed, but when you say "motive," do you mean "motif"? Can you post a link to a specific picture?

[Limehouse]

In my opinion, Sickert didn't only "suck up the atmosphere" of the room, many years after, but "vampirised" the mere crime scene with the body in... His paintings included women modeling MJK's corpse, and even her slashed face...

In my opinion…
Regards
Gene

Examples please?

[Gene Lewis]

Thing to know: did he see the scene in situ, "live", or only the forensic/police photographic material ?
G

[Gene Lewis]

Hello all ,

plenty of time to check out the crime scene and suck up the atmosphere before he starts sketching .

moonbegger

In my opinion, Sickert didn't only "suck up the atmosphere" of the room, many years after, but "vampirised" the mere crime scene with the body in... His paintings included women modeling MJK's corpse, and even her slashed face...

In my opinion…
Regards
Gene

[Bridewell]

Sickert could not have seen the actual crime scene because he was in France at the time. I think it is unlikely that he visited the room years after the murder because I do not believe he had a 'macabre fascination' over and above that expressed by thousands of others at the time of the crimes themselves.

Sickert was an artist. He was a 'narrative' artist, meaning that he wanted his paintings to tell a story, to express feeling, emotion, atmosphere and so on. Therefore, the topics he chose were often current, often exploring the underbelly of Victorian society and frequently exploring the range of emotions and reactions expressed by people in a variety of real-life situations. For example, google his painting The Miner and you will see it is a tender depiction of a reunion between a man and a woman, after the man emerges from a coal mine following a strike during which the miners remained underground.

The series of paintings that are attributed to the Ripper killings and to the Camden Town murder is just a tiny representation of his work. They do not add up to an 'obsession'.

When Sickert painted scenes of the seedier side of Victorian life, and when he painted real-life events, he was using his skills as an artist and a story-teller to create a text for the viewer, in much the same way that a newspaper jouranlist was creating a text for the reader when he or she wrote about the crimes with many journalistic flourishes and embelishments.

A most enlightening post, Limehouse. Thanks for that.

regards, Bridewell.

[Limehouse]

Sickert could not have seen the actual crime scene because he was in France at the time. I think it is unlikely that he visited the room years after the murder because I do not believe he had a 'macabre fascination' over and above that expressed by thousands of others at the time of the crimes themselves.

Sickert was an artist. He was a 'narrative' artist, meaning that he wanted his paintings to tell a story, to express feeling, emotion, atmosphere and so on. Therefore, the topics he chose were often current, often exploring the underbelly of Victorian society and frequently exploring the range of emotions and reactions expressed by people in a variety of real-life situations. For example, google his painting The Miner and you will see it is a tender depiction of a reunion between a man and a woman, after the man emerges from a coal mine following a strike during which the miners remained underground.

The series of paintings that are attributed to the Ripper killings and to the Camden Town murder is just a tiny representation of his work. They do not add up to an 'obsession'.

When Sickert painted scenes of the seedier side of Victorian life, and when he painted real-life events, he was using his skills as an artist and a story-teller to create a text for the viewer, in much the same way that a newspaper jouranlist was creating a text for the reader when he or she wrote about the crimes with many journalistic flourishes and embelishments.

[moonbegger]

Hello all ,

I fail to see how Sickert would NOT have seen inside MJK's room ! It is abundantly clear he had a macabre fascination with the Ripper case , just like all of us on these boards ! And how many on here would pass up on the opportunity to take a glimpse inside 13 Millers court .. If we had the opportunity ?

All of Sickert's paintings that are supposed to show Ripper victims were done between the years 1905/1906 to 1908,

Millers Court was demolished in 1927 or there abouts .. Sickert returned to England 1905 .. plenty of time to check out the crime scene and suck up the atmosphere before he starts sketching .

cheers

moonbegger

[Gene Lewis]

Hello Wolf, I'm going to read your essay on criminal art...
Thank's

Gene

[ChrisGeorge]

Do many of this forum members really think that Walter Sickert has seen Mary Kelly bedroom after her death, and use it as a motive for later paintings ?

Regards

Hi Gene

I agree with Phil's assessment that it is not likely that Sickert in person saw the Miller's Court crime scene, although he may have seen a newspaper sketch of it. More likely though, Sickert's artwork showing decadent women in decadent bedrooms is just the artistic style that he was using and not inspired by the Ripper murders.

Best regards

Chris

[Phil Carter]

Hello Gene,

In my honest opinion, no.

best wishes

Phil

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

In 1898 Sickert moved to France and didn't return to live in England till 1905. In 1899 the book, Vacher l’éventreur et les crimes sadiques, was published in France. This book contained two photographs of Ripper victims - one of Catharine Eddowes and the now famous photo of Mary Kelly lying dead and mutilated in her bed in Miller's Court. All of Sickert's paintings that are supposed to show Ripper victims were done between the years 1905/1906 to 1908, or after he had lived in France and after these photographs were published there.

See The Art Of Murder by Wolf Vanderlinden (originally published in Ripper Notes Magazine #13, July, 2002) found in the Dissertation section of the Casebook.

Wolf.

[Gene Lewis]

Maybe... but what is amazing is the position of the model he painted next, close to MJK 's own position in that wooden bed... though Sickert's beds were made out of iron...

Regards, Lynn

[lynn cates]

sketch

Hello Gene. Thanks. I was asking whether Sickert may have seen a sketch of "MJK"'s room.

Cheers.
LC

[Gene Lewis]

Sorry, I meant :Hi "Lynn"

[Gene Lewis]

Hi Lene
Sorry: I do not really understand your own question about the sketch ? Do you mean if I think a Sickert's sketch fits MJK decorum ?