Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

[Monty]

She was murdered before she could. Its an easy fit Monty.

Yeah. She decided to fiddle n fart around a day or so, trying to scrape money together, before going to the authorities.

Makes perfect sense.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

She hadn't made her deal with the parties she may have been seeking to blackmail yet Sam.

This is the arse-end of Victorian London in 1888. Exotic cover-up conspiracies and blackmail plots aren't usually the preserve of the poor, homeless people of the real world.

[Michael W Richards]

Did they gag her when she was in the cells for hours?

She hadn't made her deal with the parties she may have been seeking to blackmail yet Sam. If she wanted to settle for just the reward, Id agree, but I suspect that she thought she could get more by blackmail. Which means she wasn't really interested in getting someone she suspected was a killer off the street, she was interested in money.

[Sam Flynn]

She was murdered before she could

Did they gag her when she was in the cells for hours?

[Michael W Richards]

Eddowes never claimed the reward, why not?

Monty

She was murdered before she could. Its an easy fit Monty.

[Michael W Richards]

A great many 'if's here I'm afraid:

If the Casual Ward Superintendent was truthful in claiming she said what she did; if she thought there was a reward on offer; if she believed she knew the killer's identity; if the person she suspected was aware of her suspicions - wouldn't the one way to ensure that you made it safely to the police station be to get yourself arrested?

For her own safety you suggest....interesting angle Bridewell. The dizzy act might have been to make sure they took her in. She may have known she had put herself in the hot seat. But then, why go there alone when she is released?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

You need to keep a keen eye out for all those pesky policemen.

Eddowes allegedly told the Superintendent at the Mile End Casual Ward [ELO, 13th October] that she had "come back [from hopping in Kent] to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him."

As of the date Eddowes started out on her walk with John Kelly from Kent [27th September], no reward had yet been offered. Leather Apron had been absolved, and Jack had yet to make his debut.

But—

Shortly after the murder of Annie Chapman, on 21st September, the Sevenoaks Chronicle reported that "it is just possible that the police in their anxiety to unravel the mystery may have made some enquiries amongst Whitechapel people employed in the Kentish Hop gardens . . ."

So it is possible that Eddowes knew something.

She certainly wasn't a random victim of the "Ripper."

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Thanks for that.

I can easily see a scenario where Kate believes she has information that had some value and that she may have tested the waters a bit to see just how much she might be able to pocket by selling it. I believe that last afternoon she sought to do just that, and after being plied with alcohol on someone elses tab, she reveals to her company that what she does know is dangerous to them, or someone or something they represent. "Meet me outside Mitre Square at midnight" they arrange. She goes off stumbles into the hands of the local authorities and shuts her mouth for once. She becomes "nothing". The party that made the meeting knew of her arrest somehow, and also knew that D&D's in the city were released when they seemed able to take care of themselves, so they waited for her. Lets say there was some sting kind of operation in progress that night, Hutt gets word to the men on the streets that Kate is released, they have some reason to suspect that Mitre Square is the meeting place, so three detectives and 2 beat cops are charged with extreme vigilance around that square that night.

Her turn out of Bishopsgate, in the opposite direction of someone who claimed they were together almost every night, was a choice. It wasn't random, and like you say, she wasn't likely a random Ripper-like victim.

To add, I hope that you make a full and speedy recovery Monty. Your a valued contributor here and you've maintained a refreshing sense of humor about it all as well.

[Wickerman]

Here is another section from the same Dundee Peoples Journal.
It doesn't sound like White was engaged in regular Metropolitan police duties.



He managed to talk his way out of it with good British pluck!

[Wickerman]

This thread seems to be the ideal place to raise the issue of Detective Stephen White, and what he claimed to have witnessed. Although the exact location is not identified it has been theorized to have taken place in the streets around Mitre Square.

"For five nights we had been watching a certain alley behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding, and persons entering the alley were under observation by the two men. It was a bitter cold night when I arrived at the scene to take the report of the two men in hiding. I was turning away when I saw a man coming out of the alley. He was walking quickly but noiselessly, apparently wearing rubber shoes, which were rather rare in those days. I stood aside to let him pass, and as he came under the wall lamp I got a good look at him.

"He was about five feet ten inches in height, and was dressed rather shabbily, though it was obvious that the material of his clothes was good. Evidently a man who had seen better days, I thought, but men who had seen better days are common enough down East, and that of itself was not sufficent to justify me in stopping him. His face was long and thin, nostrils rather delicate, and his hair was jet black. His complexion was inclined to be sallow, and altogether the man was foreigh in appearance. The most striking thing about him, however, was the extraordinary brilliance of his eyes. They looked liked two very luminous glow worms coming through the darkness. The man was slightly bent at the shoulders, though he was obviously quite young - about thirty three, at the most - and gave one the idea of having been a student or professional man. His hands were snow white, and the fingers long and tapering.

"As the man passed me at the lamp, I had an uneasy feeling that there was something more than usually sinister about him, and I was strongly moved to find some pretext for detaining him; but the more I thought it over, the more I was forced to the conclusion that it was not in keeping with British Police methods that I should do so. My only excuse for interfering with the passage of this man would have been his association with the man we were looking for, and I had no real grounds for connecting him with the murder. It was true I had a sort of intuition that the man was not quite right. Still, if one acted on intuition in the Police force, there would be more frequent outcries about interference with the liberty of subject, and at that time the Police were criticized enough to make it undesirable to take risks.

"The man stumbled a few feet away from me, and I made that an excuse for engaging him in conversation. He turned sharply at the sound of my voice, and scowled at me in a surely fashion, but he said "Good-night" and agreed with me that it was cold. His voice was a surprise to me. It was soft and musical, with just a tinge of melancholy in it, and it was a voice of a man of culture - a voice altogether out of keeping with the squalid surroundings of the East End.

"As he turned away, one of the Police officers came out of the house he had been in and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. "Hello! what is this?" he cried, and then he called in startled tones to me to come along. In the East End we are used to shocking sights, but the sight I saw made the blood in my veins turn to ice. At the end of the cul-de-sac, huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body. It was clearly another of those terrible murders. I remembered the man I had seen, and started after him as fast as I could run, but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of the East End mean streets.
Peoples Journal, 27 September, 1919.

Howells & Skinner, in their book The Ripper Legacy, 1987, pointed to a press article that just might explain what Detective White was doing that night. Which in turn might explain why he was never called to the inquest. The article is intentionally vague because Det. Stephen White may have been attached to Special Branch.

[Azarna]

Please forgive my butting in. I just wanted to wish Monty a very speedy recovery.

[Trevor Marriott]

A great many 'if's here I'm afraid:

If the Casual Ward Superintendent was truthful in claiming she said what she did; if she thought there was a reward on offer; if she believed she knew the killer's identity; if the person she suspected was aware of her suspicions - wouldn't the one way to ensure that you made it safely to the police station be to get yourself arrested?

Yes the tell the police and claim the reward,but she didn’t, so that speaks volumes for the reliability of the evidence

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Bridewell]

She alledgedly claimed she knew who the killer was and came back to claim the reward...yet didn’t.

Instead she she went to Mitre Square to confront the murderer rather than seek the support of the authorities...and claim that reward.

Monty

A great many 'if's here I'm afraid:

If the Casual Ward Superintendent was truthful in claiming she said what she did; if she thought there was a reward on offer; if she believed she knew the killer's identity; if the person she suspected was aware of her suspicions - wouldn't the one way to ensure that you made it safely to the police station be to get yourself arrested?

[Bridewell]

Well no one said they saw another couple in the vicinity, and no one came forward after the event to say they were in the area and could have been the persons seen by Lawende, and there is no evidence that the streets were thronging with people, so I would say it is not wrong to speculate that these were Eddowes and the killer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Not wrong to speculate that they were, but also legitimate to speculate that they weren't. "No-one came forward after the event"? Given the late hour and the location it seems more likely than not that this couple comprised a prostitute and a punter. Hardly surprising that they kept quiet if that was the case IMHO.

[Busy Beaver]

Not really. Not with the thimble.

Monty

Kate could have used the thimble anywhere, why that particular location? In the Square it's self there are only a handful of men who may have heard it and all have connections to the police. Morrison/Pearce/Watkins/Harvey. Then possibly Marriot/Outram & Hulse. Unless she knew what to hit the thimble up against where by only certain punters knew the sound and responded. If Kate did use the square for any "Dealings", George Morris would probably have known.

[Sam Flynn]

Simon, all.

The nine hour surgery was, so I’ve been told, a success.

Very glad to hear it, Neil. All the best