Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

[c.d.]

I cant imagine what she would gain by saying something like that, and its interesting that you acknowledge that she likely had such a conversation with the landlady as described. Usually lies tend to serve some purpose, to evade blame, to manipulate, etc....unless of course youre dealing with a pathological case. Stating that you have in effect "the goods" on a killer and that you intend to expose him seems a tad reckless to me. Unless she was perhaps bragging about what she felt might be her soon to come financial salvation.

IF she did have any arrangement to meet someone near Mitre Square that night, which is quite possible, then isn't it also possible that the city police had some business with that square that night? I find detective alley patrols after midnight hard to imagine without any specific or imminent reason to do so. There had been no Ripper violence in that part of town, it would seem the duties the officers had were set before anyone knew anything of a murder in Berner Street. So why detectives in alleys? Why did no-ones beat involve the carriageway entrance to the square? Is it just coincidence that the murder scene was viewable from Pearce's window?

What if the person Kate intended to finger was a dirty cop? Just exploring some possibilities now, not accusing anyone of anything....that's a notation for Monty.

Hello Michael,

You left out a motive -- wanting to seem important and to come off as somebody who knows something others don't.

Could she have known who the Ripper was or have been able to make a very educated guess? Certainly. I simply think it more likely that she was just talking trash.

c.d.

[FISHY1118]

will do sam

[Sam Flynn]

It would help if you eased off the Caps Lock, Fishy. Thanks

[FISHY1118]

Heres the problem with Eddows and Lawende , how the hell can we place Eddows 100 per cent, with out a single doubt, at the entrance of church passage with a man on the testimony of Lawende. if i dressed in her clothes and stood the same distance away from him WITH MY BACK TO HIM, YES WITH MY BACK TO HIM. WOULD I BE EDDOWS TOO? REMEMBER ALL HE SAID WAS ''THE CLOTHING ON THE DEAD BODY WAS BLACK AND SIMILAR TO THE CLOTHING HE SAW ON THE WOMEN AT MITRE SQUARE AND THAT WAS THE FULL EXTENT OF HIS IDENTITY.'' CHIEF INSPECTOR DONALD SWANSTON 6TH NOV 1888 . NO HEIGHT, WEIGHT ,HAIR COLOR, APPROX AGE DISTINGUISHING FEATURES . NOTHING.... IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYONE.

[Sam Flynn]

Here's what a woman (in the lodging house used by Eddowes) said to a reporter in the wake of Kate's murder;

""If I meet Jack the Ripper to-night," she continued, "it will be Oh, Dolly Daisy, up this way." Then, turning fiercely upon me she cried, "If I thought you were any confederate of him, do you know what I'd do? I'd cut you open with this pot," and she flourished a pewter tankard, from which she had been drinking, in such dangerous proximity to my face that I thought it advisable to get beyond the reach of her arm. "

I wouldn't fancy Jack's chances against an opponent like that!

[Joshua Rogan]

Possibly nobody at all. What Morris is said to have said has more than a whiff of post-hoc bragging about it.

Here's what a woman (in the lodging house used by Eddowes) said to a reporter in the wake of Kate's murder;

""If I meet Jack the Ripper to-night," she continued, "it will be Oh, Dolly Daisy, up this way." Then, turning fiercely upon me she cried, "If I thought you were any confederate of him, do you know what I'd do? I'd cut you open with this pot," and she flourished a pewter tankard, from which she had been drinking, in such dangerous proximity to my face that I thought it advisable to get beyond the reach of her arm. "

[Michael W Richards]

I think she was just talking s***.

c.d.

I cant imagine what she would gain by saying something like that, and its interesting that you acknowledge that she likely had such a conversation with the landlady as described. Usually lies tend to serve some purpose, to evade blame, to manipulate, etc....unless of course youre dealing with a pathological case. Stating that you have in effect "the goods" on a killer and that you intend to expose him seems a tad reckless to me. Unless she was perhaps bragging about what she felt might be her soon to come financial salvation.

IF she did have any arrangement to meet someone near Mitre Square that night, which is quite possible, then isn't it also possible that the city police had some business with that square that night? I find detective alley patrols after midnight hard to imagine without any specific or imminent reason to do so. There had been no Ripper violence in that part of town, it would seem the duties the officers had were set before anyone knew anything of a murder in Berner Street. So why detectives in alleys? Why did no-ones beat involve the carriageway entrance to the square? Is it just coincidence that the murder scene was viewable from Pearce's window?

What if the person Kate intended to finger was a dirty cop? Just exploring some possibilities now, not accusing anyone of anything....that's a notation for Monty.

[Simon Wood]

Two gas lamps in Mitre Square were approximately 50 and 60 feet from the murder spot [see Foster scale plans], the nearest showing some “deficiency of light.” The body also lay in the shadow of a third gas lamp, affixed to the south-west corner of Mitre Square and Mitre Street.

[Wickerman]

Also, consistent with the story told by Blenkingsop, and the memoirs of Major Smith, we have a few words by Insp. McWilliam:

".....acting upon the stringent orders issued by the Commissioner with a view to preventing if possible a repetition of the murders which had previously been committed in Whitechapel and to keep close observation upon all prostitutes frequenting public-houses and walking the streets, extra men in plain clothes have been employed by this department since August last to patrol the Eastern portion of the city."
27 Oct. 1888.

[Wickerman]

Correct, but we are talking about two lamps.
The lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage is often debated, and that one was also not bright enough to illuminate the square - it being more than 72 ft across.
The fact there was also a lamp at the Duke St. end (shown in the press sketch) is not often talked about, or was not always known.

[APerno]

The passage is quite long; I was not aware it was that separated from the street corner. I suppose the lamp would not have illuminated any part of the square.

[Wickerman]

For what its worth, the lamp & the posts in this newspaper sketch did exist. They were noted by Foster on his drawings of Mitre Square.



Foster wrote:

Posts & a lamp
at the end of this
passage in
Duke St.

[c.d.]

I think she was just talking s***.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Yeah. I am assuming that the landlady accurately reflected what Kate said to her. What you say is possible, sure, but I believe that Kates last 24 hours in particular were misrepresented by Kelly and that we don't really know what she was up to. That Saturday afternoon....getting falling down drunk before 8:30 on what we know is just about zero money. Who paid for the drinks, and why. Not like these women to be out soliciting late afternoon. So why buy her drinks?

There are some real puzzlers about this murder I believe, and I also believe the differing skills noticed by Phillips is interesting too.

[Sam Flynn]

The numbers wouldn't negate the possibility one or more of them was correct Sam.

You're assuming that Kate actually said it, and that it wasn't made up by the Casual Ward's superintendent in order to secure their own 5 minutes of fame, or invented by the East London Observer to add a dash of late-Victorian sentimental tragedy to its article.