prices for prostitution

[doris]

http://www.casebook.org/victims/polly.html I believe Donald Rumbelow was the one who discovered the prices for sexual services but I cannot remeber the book just now. It is mentioned in the above link. Hope this helps, Dave

I wouldnt believe anything that Rumbelow says.

He appears to be happy to repeat anything he finds in a book without questioning or verifying it at all.

doris

And I have just ordered a good 2 feet or so of books about Victorian London, and east end criminals and the lower orders and what the poor sods got up to, I too would like to get some definative answers about the going rate for 'daughters of sin'

[David Monaghan]

Hi there,
I know that this has been covered in other threads, but I'm b***ered if I can find the posts again...

I just wanted to find the source for the fourpence encounter with prostitutes in our geographical and temporal range of interest...I was just (to my shame) browsing through that Monaghan book (JtR's Secret Confession) and noting that the Secret Life stated that he paid women 5, 10 shillings--sometimes up to 10 and 20 pounds. Clearly, this top range related to higher class (class in the vernacular, not necessarily higher social class) and younger women in rooms and houses offering particular services...but, even looking at the lower end, the difference between 4d and 5 shillings seems to me to be a heck of a chasm.

So, can anyone please point me to a reference that states the sum that our ladies would have charged? It would be most appreciated; I am going to be asked about it in my MPhil viva, I am sure, and I am woefully ill-prepared! Thanks, muchly, as usual.

Claire,
don't be ashamed of reading my book!! Consider it a guilty pleasure.
The price of a prostitute in 1888 is a hugely relevant question. WT Stead's Maiden Tribute series in the Pall Mall Gazette of 1885 has a lot of detail. He says the "London Minotaur" rerely pays less than £5, but that is for a virginity. Walter's My Secret Life has great amounts of detail. But he describes a sliding scale from nothing to £50 paid for securing the virginity of Louise. I found most interesting the discriptions of negotiation for services - some of which were voyeuristic rather than physical - that were undertaken. Walter says of the early part of the relationship with Mary Davis (married name of MJK) that she "sold herself for just five shillings" when she could have been a two-sovereign woman in the West End. The Whitechapel women were less than half the price of the West End girls, particularly those the Quadrant. However, there was no such thing as standard rate. Everything was negotiable.
regard
David Monaghan
Author
Jack the Ripper's Secret Confession

[Natalie Severn]

The more I read your posts, the more I like you. Dave

........and if you ever meet Colin you will like him even more Dave!

[protohistorian]

.........

The more I read your posts, the more I like you. Dave

[claire]

I suppose it might be usual to wait until you get to the location to hand over the money...just because you wouldn't want to be observed passing over payment out in the open. I know that it seems that our ladies weren't observed with their attacker in the open, but if that was the convention, then that was the convention, if you see what I mean.

As we know, there wasn't any medical evidence they had engaged in sex immediately before death (not, of course, that they didn't, but just that there doesn't seem to be any contemporary evidence they did)...so, I rather think that he killed them the instant they reached a suitable location, them following, him behind, knife ready. Handing over money is just time wasting, in such a scenario.

As for prices, I was reading the Sarah Wise book today and she quotes the price of 2/- for a night with a woman in her room in the Nichol, immediately adjacent Whitechapel.

[Hunter]

Hi Edward,

You've brought up something that has been much debated and is still quite purplexing. The killer evidently rifled through the pockets of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes, so he could have gotten his money back that way. Of course, Kelly was undressed in bed and many of her clothes burned in the fireplace so he could have taken the money at any time after her murder. Stride had no money on her at the time of death and there was no indication that her pockets had been molested.

Where does that leave us? In all but one case he could have paid his fee and then taken it back afterwards. Stride's murder is unique in many ways leading to the debate as to whether she was the victim of the same killer or not. It may be that some of the women demanded payment up front and some after they arrived at the location to consumate the deal. There may be no standerd practice one way or another for any of them.. If she felt like she could trust him, she might wait until a little foreplay had begun to ask for payment and the murderer, having arrived at the chosen location decides to kill her before that starts. It may never be known for sure.

[Edward]

Fee for service

Hello All -

While we're on the topic of fee for service (no pun intended), is it true that none of the victims were found to have money on their person when discovered? If so, I find that fact interesting. The first rule in the "oldest profession" is to get the money up front. Some argue that the victims' economically-depressed condition precluded demanding an up front fee. I do not agree with this argument. Get burnt once or twice, and you demand the fee up front.

Comments?

Cheers,
Edward

[doris]

Odd this should be mentioned as earlier I asked questions about 1888 exchange rates and 1888 prices as part of my ripper research.
Today I found some 'working girls' and enquired about prices, just to get an idea of what such services nowadays would cost, especially with regard to modern booze etc. prices.

The ladies said (and bear in mind that I live in a tiny town in the midlands-Grantham) that all the usual stuff that lovers do followed by sex in a nice room would cost 80 pounds. But they said that their less reputable counterparts, who would engage in such matters outside would ask for about 20 or 30 pounds.

Now my understanding is that 1888 toms would do 'it' for the cost of a meal or a bed for the night. Well, 20 or 30 quid would only just pay for a bed but it would pay for a great many meals, wouldn't it?

Interesting stuff, eh?

Doris

[claire]

Thanks, SB...I think you're right; there wasn't a particular convention, and what a punter might pay for 2 minutes in the corner of a yard with some old boiler would be very different to the sum charged by younger ladies with better services on offer. Clearly, price capping doesn't seem congruous with an unregulated (informally regulated) industry like prostitution...and clearly, on the basis of My Secret Life, prices were much higher. And, of course, there is the discrepancy between the 'lores' of a tuppenny upright, a thrupenny kneetrembler, the fourpenny doss, and so on and so forth. The relatively high prices quoted in sources other than Jack London's are another explanatory factor around McCarthy's seeming tolerance of MJK's rent arrears...if she could get 5 shillings for one chappy, then clearing those arrears wouldn't take long at all...so perhaps it's not so screwy that he did put up with the arrears, if he knew (which he surely would) the possible going rates.

Cheers.

The price of a trick was roughly the same as a large glass of gin--3 or 4d.

'Ripperlore', for which there is no historical basis. None, whatsoever!

Why do you call it lore?

... perhaps you referred to the price charged by the ladies?

Indeed, I did! For it is just that: 'Ripperlore'!

And this, I am certain, is its source:



"Those women there", said our guide, "will sell themselves for thru'pence, or tu'pence, or a loaf of stale bread".

"The People of the Abyss", by Jack London (Chapter 6)

Donald Rumbelow asserts three-to-four nights per week (i.e. as often as he hosts a tour), that "you could buy an 'East End' prostitute, in 1888, for three pennies, two pennies, or a loaf of stale bread". He then goes on to proclaim that "the price was 'fixed' (i.e. capped) at three pennies, as that was the price of a tall glass of gin".

In the absence of any other known references, 'Ripperology' has seized upon Jack London's very specific pronouncement, regarding a very specific group of down-trodden souls, and established a convention that all 'East End' prostitutes typically charged ~ 2d-to-4d, in 1888.

I am quite certain that at the height of desperation, the likes of Annie Chapman would have settled for absolutely anything she could get, in return for a 'wank', in some vermin-infested, sludge-filled alley.

But I am just as certain that on a good night, having already procured a meal and bed for the evening, the likes of Frances Coles, when propositioned by an especially drunk and lustful sailor, would have demanded - and commanded - a 'half-crown' (i.e. 'two-and-six': 2s/6d), in return for an 'all-nighter', in some reasonably 'comfortable' accommodation.

… Donald seems a good chap to quote.

I'm sure Donald Rumbelow is many things: A somewhat sensationalist* tour-guide, being one of them. But, a demographer of Victorian London, he is not!

* He also claims that the Parish Church of St. Botolph without Aldgate was known, in 1888, as the "Prostitutes' Church". That too, is 'Ripperlore'!

Are you saying that 3-4d was not the usual fee?

I am saying firstly and fore mostly that we do not know what these women charged for their 'services'.

I am also saying that with a very wide range of 'services' on offer, there would invariably have been an accordant range of 'going rates'.

--- Click the Above 'Thumbnail' to View the Applicable Portion of an 'A&E Biography' Documentary ---

2:36 / 9:53

Narrator: "In contrast, the 'East End'; where 900,000 impoverished people lived in cramped, filthy slums, ..."

This being said as a slide show depicts a photograph ("The Crawlers"; c. 1877) of a woman cradling a baby, on the steps of the Parish Workhouse of St. Giles in the Fields & St. George Bloomsbury, Short's Gardens, Endell Street, Parish of St. Giles in the Fields – a decidedly 'West End' location.

"900,000 impoverished people" ?????????

From the first of Charles Booth's three surveys …

"Labour and Life of the People: London", Williams & Norgate, 1889-1891

East London (Less Hackney):

- Total Population (1891 Census): 705,114
- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 708,675

- Estimated Percentage; Class 'A' ('vicious' (i.e. vice-ridden), 'semi-criminal'): 1.33%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'B' ('very poor'): 11.85%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'C' ('poor' - irregular income): 9.00%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'D' ('poor' - regular but inadequate income): 15.83%

- Estimated Percentage; Below the 'Line of Poverty': 38.00%

- Estimated Percentage; Class 'E' ('above the line of poverty' - regular 'standard' income): 44.31%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'F' ('highly skilled labour'): 11.40%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'G' ('lower middle-class'): 4.54%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'H' ('upper middle-class'): 1.75%

- Estimated Percentage; Above the 'Line of Poverty': 62.00%

Booth's data would suggest that London's 'East End', in 1888, was inhabited by ~710,000 persons, of whom ~270,000 were "impoverished", and of whom ~95,000 "lived in cramped, filthy slums".

Those numbers are indeed alarming; but each is a 'far-cry' from being "900,000".

3:03 / 9:53

Martin Fido: "The 'East End' … at the end of the 1880's … an area where at any time, almost any woman might have to prostitute herself - as the only way to feed her children."

This being said as a slide show depicts a photograph ("Evicted"; from George R. Sims's "Living London") of an eviction scene, that I believe occurred in either Southwark or Bermondsey.

"an area where at any time, almost any woman might have to prostitute herself" ?????????

That is unadulterated bullshit!

3:45 / 9:53

Donald Rumbelow: "You could buy one of these women for three pennies, or two pennies, or a loaf of stale bread. The price of three pennies was fixed, because that was what the women would pay for a large glass of gin."

I have taken Rumbelow's tour, on three separate occasions. Each time, the above statement was made verbatim.

Donald Rumbelow has seized upon the proclamations of Jack London's tour-guide, regarding a very specific group of down-trodden 'dollymops'. In so doing, he has perpetuated a myth.

I believe we can rest assured that prostitutes of London's 'East End', in 1888, came in all 'shapes-and-sizes' and offered a multitude of 'services', for which there was an accordant range of 'going rates'.

As for the parameters of that 'range': We plainly and simply do not know what they were!

The conventional wisdoms of 'Ripperology' are in dire need of an 'overhaul'!

That should start with the realization that the likes of Martin Fido, Donald Rumbelow, et al are not infallible!

.........

[claire]

Yup, Robert...those are my thoughts. All I need now is to find a direct reference to it!!

[RJM]

The price of 4d that is bandied about is also the price of a lodging house bed for the night. Rumbelow also mentioned the three penny knee-trembler, which equals the price of a large glass of gin. He also said that some even offered sexual favours for a stale loaf of bread.

Rumbelow's main point was that these women sold themselves for what they needed. This is still true today.

In modern London (or New York), one can pay £1000 an hour for the company of a lady. But one can also get sex for a rock or two of crack. In developing countries there are women that sell their bodies for food. It all comes down to what punters are willing to pay for pleasure and what prostitutes are willing to accept as payment.

When Emily Holland ran into her friend, Polly Nichols, at the corner of Whitechapel Road and Osborn St. about an hour before her death, she asked Nichols to come back to her room with her. Polly appeared drunk and said that she had made her doss money three times but spent it on drink. Polly assured Emily that she would be back soon with it and trundled off. I assume she charged the going rate and turned three tricks earlier, and was looking for her fourth when she met the man who murdered her.

All the best,

Robert

[j.r-ahde]

Hello claire!

Well, v***u in Finnish is practically, what the f***k is in English...

All right, that's enough about rude words, so;

Your thought about MJK preferring punters is quite good!

All the best
Jukka

[claire]

Jukka, I am more intrigued as to what f***k stands for? Something a little rude in Suomi, perhaps?? Naffed if I know!

And, while I'm here--if anyone else has some references for me, that would be great. Just thinking that, if your rent was four and six a week, at 4d a time, that's 13 or 14 punters before you even eat or drink. Looking at doing, then, at least 30+ punters in a week before body loses sight of soul.

Off topic (and I won't stay long on it, or Gareth will come on to tell me off!), I suppose it would explain why MJK would entertain the thought of punters in her room, as they would doubtless pay rather more for it.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Well, you may have a clue, that what a f***k she is talking about...

But me having Finnish as a first language cannot even guess....

All the best
Jukka