The International Working Mens Association/Wiiliam Wess

[Archaic]

Hi, Lynn.

I think if word got out that Fenians were linked to the Whitechapel murders, it would turn any public sympathy for their cause against them
in a second.

Much of the political and monetary support for the Fenian movement came from Irish Catholic Americans.

I don't think they would keep sending money if they thought it was going to fund the gruesome sexual mutilation of helpless women in Whitechapel.

Best regards, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Sorry, Phil, I don't follow your argument.

Surely if one of the murderers was known to the police and believed to be a Fenian sympathizer,
the government would PUBLICIZE this fact to discredit the Fenians???


Thanks & best regards, Archaic

Archaic,

If you were sitting at the top, AFTER the tension surrounding Anarchy, Trafalgar Square, The Fenian Plot to kill Balfour, The Parnell commission just around the corner, the hew and cry about the Whitechapel murders from the masses, the newspapers stirrring it up, the fake letters being PUBLISHED, said by many inadvisedly, the place was at social boiling point! Every Tom Dick and Harry being arrested all over the area, undercover policemen, The Queen asking questions and making statements, Parliament in turmoil, Warren's head on the block, amongst MANY others... Would YOU risk putting this info out?

No, I think this was a prevention thing. Say nothing. Sit on it. Don't risk the backlash. A backlash that could ask one thing from the masses...

If we have a LOOSE CANON person with Fenian connections killing ONE woman in this series...if not more, and the Police don't solve it... just how strong ARE this group of people? At what length would they go before they stop? Murderers, bomb plots of Balfour, the Post Office job in the same area?... It would put FEAR on the streets...and with the anarchists making hay of it, the smell of revolution in the air, which WAS feared by Government. (Remember, I believe there were seven (7) attempts on Queen Victoria's life).

This was a very serious situation. Rememeber, in those days, the possibility of revolution was backed up by the thought of collapse of the entire system... they remembered what happened in France. And how the top tier of the system collapsed then.
There was a far greater chance of revolution in those days even though Britain was supposed to be a civilized nation. And the Governments priority was buliding and maintaining THE EMPIRE.Through law and order, and control.

Possibility that the very country being the head of an Empire, whilst under revolution..... the consequences would have sent the possibility of repercussions throughout that Empire. More masses rising up.

The Empire meant everything to the powers that be.

That is why Archaic, I believe those Secret File documents were sealed THEN in perpituity.
Thats the answer.


best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

Hmg

Hello Archaic.

"Surely if one of the murderers was known to the police and believed to be a Fenian sympathizer,

the government would PUBLICIZE this fact to discredit the Fenians???"

Well, what effect would that have had on Her Majesty's Government? (Fenians have perpetrated . . . )

The best.
LC

[Archaic]

Can you think of the kerfuddle this would cause if this lot got out at the time?

That ONE of the murderers was a Fenian sympathiser?
It HAD to be covered up.

I reckon THAT is why those Secret Files are under lock and key. Its the Fenian Issue.

Sorry, Phil, I don't follow your argument.

Surely if one of the murderers was known to the police and believed to be a Fenian sympathizer,

the government would PUBLICIZE this fact to discredit the Fenians???


Thanks & best regards, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Phil,

I see you think John Turner and Le Grand are the same man. Rest assured they are two different people.

Hello Tom...

So they are different people.
Le Grand kills Stride.
And when he gets banged up later... he uses the nom de plume...
John Turner.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom


Quote Tom Westcott... Naturally, Fenians and anarchists would run across each other and even work together. But to what extent? Certainly, they both dealt in bombs and such. The Berner Street club is no exception. This is one line I plan to research more in the future.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Phil,

I see you think John Turner and Le Grand are the same man. Rest assured they are two different people.

As you said, the Fenians were known to be working in CONJUNCTION with the Anarchists. Like the ones in Berner St. IWMC.

Steady on, Phil. I didn't say all that. And many of the Berner Street peeps were peaceful socialists.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom,

Thanks, and you too!

I am starting think there is a possiblity this guy Turner/Le Grand killed Liz Stride. And I think that is possibly who Schwartz saw. And possibly why he refused to testify. Because of Turner's/Le Grand's Fenianism. Fear. Not of hanging a jew... but about being the squeal on Le Grand. Even years afterwards.

As you said, the Fenians were known to be working in CONJUNCTION with the Anarchists. Like the ones in Berner St. IWMC.

Can you think of the kerfuddle this would cause if this lot got out at the time? That ONE of the murderers was a Fenian sympathiser?
It HAD to be covered up.

I reckon THAT is why those Secret Files are under lock and key. Its the Fenian Issue.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

I have the name John Turner numerous times in my files and notes. I don't think he ended up in the slammer for blackmailing.

Le Grand was not Irish, but he has some involvement with the Fenians that Debra A and I are trying to flesh out.

But don't let me be a fuddyduddy. See what you can find.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Is there a connection to the murders? Possibly. I could name a few suspicious characters. But I've never found anything solid.

As for the Fenians, I don't know much about them, except they were a bunch of Irishmen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

1) I have given you a name. John Turner/Le Grand. I can see no reason why this man ISN'T the same person as John Turner, IWMC member. Tell me why he CAN'T be?

2) Le Grand, was NOT Irish...but was involved with the Fenians wasn't he?


with best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

What connection is all this to the murders? I have a lot of stuff on the anarchists of London. There's a number of connections from the club to murder sites. This is nothing new. Goulston Street was very significant in the history of immigrant Jews. It was also where the Berner Street club would start out on some of their marches. Like one that ended in Mitre Square because it's right next to the big Synagogue. Is there a connection to the murders? Possibly. I could name a few suspicious characters. But I've never found anything solid.

As for the Fenians, I don't know much about them, except they were a bunch of Irishmen. Silly guinneas.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

What connection is that, Phil?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

I requote you..

Quote Tom Westcott... Naturally, Fenians and anarchists would run across each other and even work together. But to what extent? Certainly, they both dealt in bombs and such. The Berner Street club is no exception. This is one line I plan to research more in the future.

happy now?..you said it!

best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

new direction

Hello Phil. Although it is too soon to uncork the bubbly, yet this theory does tie many viable threads together: Fenians; anarchists; socialists; and (so I was given to understand in a private message) Monty Druitt, who wished to be a social reformer--to say nothing of a possible link to Tom's man.

This requires much deliberation but it may represent a new direction. Very well. The old was getting a bit boring.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

What connection is that, Phil?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

No kidding. Lynn or Mike post and it's like a bomb dropped.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

It doesnt matter WHO did what, before or after... the point is that NOW we have a certain connection to a murder site. Whoever found it.. we have made significant progress.All of us.. you, Archaic, Michael LC, me... all of us. smiling happily...well done!

best wishes

Phil