The International Working Mens Association/Wiiliam Wess

[Phil Carter]

Hello Archaic,

99% agree with that lot... I thought that was what I posted?

1%.. interruption. We don't know that. Like you said. Its speculation.

best wishes Archaic

Phil

[Archaic]

Hi Phil. I'll just address two quick points:

Much about Liz Stride's murder is speculation.
I believe it was a throat-slashing and not a full-out sexual mutilation because the killer was interrupted.

As for Epilepsy, it is NOT a form of Mental Illness or "Madness".
It is a Physical Illness characterized by seizures in the brain.
The Victorians did not understand this; today we do.

Best regards, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

Somehow I'm not getting the drift.
Let's change the world! We'll start by killing a prostitute at our office. Does not compute to me.

Roy

Hello Roy,

It cause and effect. Look AROUND the killing. Thats where cause and effect comes in, as I wrote about, and Michael did, and Lynn did earlier in this thread.

best wishes

Phil

[Roy Corduroy]

As I said, I am talking about LIZ STRIDES murder.

Hi Phil,

Somehow I'm not getting the drift.
Let's change the world! We'll start by killing a prostitute at our office. Does not compute to me.

Roy

[Phil Carter]

Hello Archaic,

1) Those many officials did have many theories, all PUBLISHED. Not one published in full about Fenians, just a Macnaghten comment, and a comment in 1920 attributed to Wynne Baxter. Otherwise, very little.
2) As I said, I am talking about LIZ STRIDES murder. And that is not a sexual murder. Its a throat slashing. Anything else is speculation re Stride.
3) Yes, perfectly natural. Indeed. Like the natural fear or revolution, which was THE fear.
4) Indeed they did. Epilepsy was a form of madness too. So Doctors were also limited in their understanding of medical conditions and their causes.
5) You are entitled to that view, and I happen to disagree... to ONE of these murders. STRIDE. It sticks out as being different.
6) Partly agree, but I think that it is intertwined.

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

Hi, Phil.

I'm sure many officials speculated as to the possible involvement of Fenians in the Whitechapel Murders.
This doesn't mean it was true.

I believe they speculated regarding a political motivation because they had a very poor understanding of the nature of Sexual Serial Murder and Sexual Psychopaths.

You have to remember, these are men raised in the 19th Century trying to place these murders within the context of their own frame of reference and their own knowledge base. That's perfectly natural.

These officials viewed the world through more familiar Victorian paradigms such as Irish Rebel-Madmen, Lunatic Polish Jews, and Homosexual Men who must be driven to slaughter and mutilate women because they hate them and are "Sexually Insane".

I believe the officials tried their best and were sincere in their effforts.
But I honestly don't believe that they ever knew who perpetrated the murders or why.


> Excuse me, I'm a bit concerned that we might go off on a tangent here and to Michael's IWMA thread off-track, so maybe the Fenian theories are best kept to another thread? Maybe a sort of parallel thread?

- What does everybody think? -

Best regards, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

The Rubbish Carter..

cheers Mike.. I'll remember that one!.. hahahahahaha

best wishes mate

Phil

[Phil Carter]

And Observer,

A loose canon with connections to the Fenians?... WRITING on the wall...

The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing.

See what THAT would achieve?

two things... attention away from The Fenians... and more importantly... if this fellow was known to be connected with BERNER ST, and the IWMC, and their members...then you could have the backlash from there too.

best wishes

Phil

I think if word got out that Fenians were linked to the Whitechapel murders, it would turn any public sympathy for their cause against them
in a second.


Best regards, Archaic

Or........the truth of what was transpiring "could cause the throne to totter"....something that was really quite a "hot potato"....and something prevented them from actually capturing the fiend perhaps because they "lacked certain authorities that were available to police forces in Europe".

Seeking evidence for the committal of a crime like murder allows for the police to have greater range of access to private dwellings and organizations, Anderson tells us about the house to house searches that were done, and we know many men were detained and questioned until such time as a reasonable alibi could be presented.

So in what areas would they lack the kind of authority they were alluding to? Could it be perhaps that they were unable to use information written or oral that was obtained by subversive methods in the prosecution of social anarchists? I've looked at some of the laws in France at the time regarding search and seizures and the holding of political prisoners and anarchists for indefinite lengths of time without formal charges being made.....something like the incarceration that is attributed to the comments made by Sir Robert Anderson about the insane man held without any judicial process. So I dont see that as being unequal between France and England.

If there was a link between the anarchist Socialists and/or the Fenian Irish Self Rulers with any of the Ripper crimes in any way, I would think that crime would immediately fall under jurisdictions that Sir Robert would have little knowledge of and zero influence with....perhaps he only "thought he knew". But Macnaghten might. So might some others we are aware of. But that investigation would be Home Office or Special Branch, and it seems they share information with no-one. Ever. Sealed in perpetuity. Thrown away the key. Mums the word. Hushed puppies.

I started this trawl looking for some link of known Socialists and known Fenians at that time....and I havent satisfied myself that Ive found anything that useful yet.

Best regards all


Oh...by the way, I wonder if Louis looked anything like this photo of a rubbish cart and driver....

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil

If the Government supressed the fact that The Fenians perpetrated one or more of the Whitechapel murders, why didn't The Fenians court the press themsleves? If the motive was to spread mayhem and panic ( whoever carried out the murders achieved this) and The Fenians wanted to own up to the mayhem why did they not contact a member of the press and reveal all. Are you saying that the prees were gagged?

all the best

Observer

Hello Observer,

Point to remember. SIMS was Macnagtens friend. Anything he came out with, SIMS published. No, I'm not saying the press were gagged at all. I'm saying that this had to be hushed... in every way. That was ONE way of staying away from mentioning Fenianism.

Also remember that certain "lower class" newspapers in the country were being very clear aboutprinting sensationalism. TJ Bulling and co, stirring things up to no end.
The very same newspapers who had sympathies inside anarchy. And that Warren resigning pressure. That was spread about the whole scene... by the lower class newspapers.
Added to which the Irish press became very very strongly against the Government as thios escalated.

best wishes

Phil

[Observer]

Hi again Phil

Just saw your latest post, and didn't realise you were referring to a loose cannon within The Fenian movement. So forget my last post.

all the best

Observer

[Archaic]

J. Rombro, Writer For 'The Worker's Friend'

Here's a bit about a famous prose writer named J. Rombro who contributed to The Worker's Friend and other Socialist papers.

It's from a book on Yiddish Literature. I can't tell if they are saying Rombro wrote in Yiddish, or in Hebrew, or perhaps in both.

Note that it says the Berner St group was "rather anarchistic than social-democratic."

Best regards, Archaic

[Observer]

Hi Phil

If the Government supressed the fact that The Fenians perpetrated one or more of the Whitechapel murders, why didn't The Fenians court the press themsleves? If the motive was to spread mayhem and panic ( whoever carried out the murders achieved this) and The Fenians wanted to own up to the mayhem why did they not contact a member of the press and reveal all. Are you saying that the prees were gagged?

all the best

Observer

[Phil Carter]

Archaic,

Oh,and I forgot.
WYNNE BAXTER, MACNAGTEN amongst others, made the statement about Fenian connections to the WM.
Added to the Fact that Anderson was in control of the CID, the anti-Fenian brigade, and had brought in Abberline and co ALL EXPERIENCED with on the ground anti-Fenian work for the case.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hi, Lynn.

I think if word got out that Fenians were linked to the Whitechapel murders, it would turn any public sympathy for their cause against them
in a second.

Much of the political and monetary support for the Fenian movement came from Irish Catholic Americans.

I don't think they would keep sending money if they thought it was going to fund the gruesome sexual mutilation of helpless women in Whitechapel.

Best regards, Archaic

Hello Archaic,

TRUE...IF that was the only thing happening. But it wasn't. And we AREN'T talking about EVERY murder. We are talking about ONE murder... of LIZ STRIDE... not a sexual murder at all... a throat slashing. By a LOOSE CANON, connected to Fenianism.

best wishes

Phil