Toffs in Spitalfields

[Ben]

It should be remebered that Hutchinson may have seen astrakhan on the Sunday following the murder of Kelly. This may have given him a further opportunity to scrutinise the man.

When he was wearing exactly the same clothes and wearing exactly the same accessories, Nemo? It doesn't ring true to me, I'm afraid.

Then there's that rather humerous incongruity between Hutchinson's claim to recongnise the man "anywhere", and his subsequent claim that he "fancied" that he saw him again on Petticoat Lane (Oooh, where the Jews live and congregate!) but "could not be certain". The fact that the description was disjointed from the text is mere officialdom on the part of police, and not an indication that he or they were incorporating two sightings.

Hutchinson may well have taken heed of Maxwell's claims that Kelly was alive on the Friday morning so he would not have wished to introduce himself into the investigation unnecessarily

Unnecessarily? What was unnecessary about reporting his observations about the movements of Mary Jane Kelly which he claimed took place an hour or so before the more commonly accepted time of death, nearer to 3:30am? Maxwell made her observations known, but it was obvious that her evidence was in the minority of opinion, when compared to those of Lewis, Prater et al, and as such, it's very unlikely that anyone reading the inquest evidence could possibly have arrived at the conclusion that the preponderance of evidence (medical or eye/ear-witness) indicated a later "Maxwellian" time of death. In any event, why wait to read (hear?) Maxwell's testimony before coming forward? What's wrong with coming forward as soon as he heard of the murders?

If he wanted to divert attention from himself, I would suggest that he would give a vague description and not contend that astrakhan lived in the area and could be identified.

On the contrary, if he wanted to divert attention away from himself, what better than to wheel in the generic popular scapegoat? The surly Jewish, parcel-clutching embodiment of the public's anxiety with regard to the ripper's likely appearance? Remember that the reason he gave for his professed interest in the court was the unusual appearance of the suspect in comparison to Kelly - a reason that would be invalidated if the description was only "vague".

Just because no-one else saw astrakhan does not mean he does not exist - that is at the very least an unreasonable assumption. The same could be said for blotchy and others if that were the case.

That doesn't follow at all. Blotchy was incredibly inconspicious for the district. If he passed along the alleyways and thoroughfares in the murder districts, he'd be unnoticed as Mr. generic Joe Average. Astrakhan, by contrast, would have stood out a mile, bedecked as he was in his finery which would have been incredibly conspicuous for the district.

I still hold that numerous smartly dressed men frequented the East End at all times of day or night and that there was much activity on the streets, especially the main thoroughfares.

But on what basis are you "holding" to that belief? It has been satisfactorily established from this thread, that no evidence of toffery parading into the East End occured, and the reasons for this absence of toffery had been given equally good thread-time.

There is no reason why a prospective client on the Commercial Rd could not be persuaded by Kelly to walk a short distance along Dorset St. to her room.

I know, but then there's no evidence that anyone remotely as opulently-attried was the Astrakhan man venturing into a known slum during the Autum of Terror simply to procure a prostitute, for reasons enumerated more than enough times in this discussion.

When astrakhan arrived at the court entrance, he may have had some misgivings - hence the delay before he actually ventured into the court.

Of course he'd have misgivings. He'd accompanied a prostitute to the very worst street in the entirety of greater London with evidence of his wealth on ostentatious display, and he'd done so in the certainty that a total stranger had clocked him at close quarters and who had then followed him all the way to his intended destination. Why good would a "delay" do to ennervate any "misgivings"? For all he knew, Hutchinson could have been a ripper-hunting zealot or a mugger, and yet he decided to ensconce himself in a one-exit room.

[White-Knight]

Many thanks for the consideration, all!

Come back, Norma..these boys and girls ain't so bad!

WK.

[White-Knight]

I guess our toff was looking for the particular deviancy of......ripping!

The main lesson we can take away from this thread (all 36 pages) is: ANYTHING could have happened, but the evidence is not particularly convincing that toffs were roaming Spitalfields.

Personally, I think that Jack loved nothing better than terrorizing all of London. If he had had the means necessary, he would have happily committed crimes outside his "jurisdiction".

agreed.
agreed.
agreed.

WK.

[White-Knight]

I understand the idea that W.K. presented about someone jaded to the extent the Philly guy and his German nutcrackers are or were here....and "slumming" for his particular deviancy since he looks down on them anyway. True, the Germans did this mutually and in the confines of a controlled environment....but if the hypothetical "toff" from the LVP didn't have or want one, then I see his point. I think W.K. is probably just thinking outside the proverbial box here.

correct.

WK.

[White-Knight]

, but it can't be argued that these mythical toffs from 1888 were equally enticed by the prospect of being punched violently in the face and having their watches stolen, before being pursued and beaten up further by a mob of ripper-fearing zealots?

They could secure that goal with absolute ease by finding that rough anywhere in the West End without the unnecessary added risk that came with imprudent saunters into the worst possible location.


Cheers,
Ben

Ben..I'm strangely reminded of Gimli the dwarf in Lord of The rings..'hopelessly outnumbered , small chance of success..what are we waiting for?' 'Unnecessary risk' is what it's all about, possibly!

WK

[White-Knight]

. People with specialisms want to know what they are getting.
Miss Marple

Unless not knowing what you're getting IS your specialism, Miss marple!

not YOU personally, you understand! lol!

WK

[White-Knight]

Hi Sam

Hi WK,

It was neither my intention to deny the possibility, nor to chase Nats from the boards. My interest was in the veracity of the "toffs and tarts" idea, not in disproving the Excursions of Mr Astrakhan per se, although I'm as sceptical of his existence as I ever was.

I would still tend to refute even the possibility that any man earning more than 40 shillings per week would have wanted to procure sex with the degraded "unfortunates" of Spitalfields, still less gone there in search of it.

Fair enough ,Sam..share that scepticism about Astrakhan...but not the 'possibility' of such ventures.it takes all sorts!!!.appreciate you are not denying it altogether,don't think that's the impression Norma got though!?

WK

[Nemo]

It should be remebered that Hutchinson may have seen astrakhan on the Sunday following the murder of Kelly. This may have given him a further opportunity to scrutinise the man.

The description in his statement is disjointed from the main text and may well be a combination of the two sightings.

Much is made of Hutchinson's delay in coming forward, but the time of death was not really established until after the inquest. Hutchinson may well have taken heed of Maxwell's claims that Kelly was alive on the Friday morning so he would not have wished to introduce himself into the investigation unnecessarily.

After the inquest he would have realised that he had extra information that could help the inquiry.

If he wanted to divert attention from himself, I would suggest that he would give a vague description and not contend that astrakhan lived in the area and could be identified.

Due to the description of astrakhan appearing in the press, the search for him may have waned due to the high probability that he would change his appearance and/or leave the area.

Just because no-one else saw astrakhan does not mean he does not exist - that is at the very least an unreasonable assumption. The same could be said for blotchy and others if that were the case.

I still hold that numerous smartly dressed men frequented the East End at all times of day or night and that there was much activity on the streets, especially the main thoroughfares.

There is no reason why a prospective client on the Commercial Rd could not be persuaded by Kelly to walk a short distance along Dorset St. to her room.

When astrakhan arrived at the court entrance, he may have had some misgivings - hence the delay before he actually ventured into the court.

[Brenda]

....and "slumming" for his particular deviancy

I guess our toff was looking for the particular deviancy of......ripping!

The main lesson we can take away from this thread (all 36 pages) is: ANYTHING could have happened, but the evidence is not particularly convincing that toffs were roaming Spitalfields.

Personally, I think that Jack loved nothing better than terrorizing all of London. If he had had the means necessary, he would have happily committed crimes outside his "jurisdiction".

[Howard Brown]

Ben,Sam,Miss Marple...

I know this isn't an LVP story what follows, but W.K. did remind me of a story with a similar theme...so bear with me for a minute.

Around 20 years ago in Philadelphia, some creep who lived in the fashionable and expen$ive Rittenhouse Square area of the city "slummed" in a working class section ( Grey's Ferry) on the East side of the city...to pick up working class and prole teenagers and offer them money so he could engage in coprophagia with them in exchange for pizza,beer,meth and new underwear. They were all heterosexual males and eventually had to be tested for HIV since he fellated them. The pizza wasn't that good either.

I understand the idea that W.K. presented about someone jaded to the extent the Philly guy and his German nutcrackers are or were here....and "slumming" for his particular deviancy since he looks down on them anyway. True, the Germans did this mutually and in the confines of a controlled environment....but if the hypothetical "toff" from the LVP didn't have or want one, then I see his point. I think W.K. is probably just thinking outside the proverbial box here.

However,having said that,I still think the typical,rank and file,toff would prefer to stay outside the East End since its reputation for crime was perhaps as high or higher than other areas of the metropolis that prostitutes habituated.

[Ben]

...And if they didn't what Littlechild on their case, they certainly didn't want to be caught doing both!

[Sam Flynn]

These Germans engaged in their activity presumably because they enjoyed the prospect of a bit of mutual scrotal-hammering, but it can't be argued that these mythical toffs from 1888 were equally enticed by the prospect of being punched violently in the face and having their watches stolen, before being pursued and beaten up further by a mob

Indeed, Ben, the two behaviours seem to be poles apart. I perceive a vas deferens between them

[miss marple]

Your missing a point White Night. If you had specialist tastes, then it the was in he West End where exclusive brothels catered to every form of vice, that you would get what you wanted. It was a well documented trade, going back the the 18th century This was professional.
The loose ladies the East end were strictly amateurs, whoring was a last resort for survival, and they had an element of choice as to when and where they worked.charging the bottom rate of fourpence for a quick outdoor shag to fund their drinking or a bed for the night.
If you were into S&M, underage girls,[ the age of consent then was 12] homosexuality,threesomes, beatings or any weird stuff head up west. where you would get what you paid for. People with specialisms want to know what they are getting.
Miss Marple

[Ben]

a few years ago a GROUP of men was reported in the german press to have taken sexual solace in nailing each other's scrotums to the floor!...

In the comfort of their own homes, presumably, White Knight? Dangle your scrotum on the streets in 1888 Spitalfields and your ballsack-nailing days would be truly of yore. These Germans engaged in their activity presumably because they enjoyed the prospect of a bit of mutual scrotal-hammering, but it can't be argued that these mythical toffs from 1888 were equally enticed by the prospect of being punched violently in the face and having their watches stolen, before being pursued and beaten up further by a mob of ripper-fearing zealots?

We might reasonably imagine that these Germans sought out a venue that would best facillitate the nailing of their scrotums in comfort, without fear of undesirable external influences, just as we might reasonably expect the same thing about toffs looking for some "rough". They could secure that goal with absolute ease by finding that rough anywhere in the West End without the unnecessary added risk that came with imprudent saunters into the worst possible location.

I'm sorry, but "painted prostitutes of the West End"? No, someone must have given you the wrong idea. There were plenty of "rough" prostitutes available up West, reinforcing again that the perceived pursuit of "roughness" does nothing to advance the case for an imagined toff preference for the East End.

Another old chestnut that continues to do the rounds, I've noticed, is this outdated notion that Victorian "toffs" were all vulgar hedonists in pursuit of fun at any cost. I don't know whether the seeds of this idea were sown by the Royal Conspiracy theorists or what, but an important point to emerge from this discussion is that the upper-class men who did visit the district invariably did so for charitable reasons.

Cheers,
Ben

[Howard Brown]

Dear White Knight:

Points well taken. If there was a "Toff' who was a deviant on the level of the guys who liked to nail their Sacajawea's on the floor,then your point is understood. This hypothetical toff might even go "barnyard" before being with a "normal" or typical ( i.e., has more than 3 or 4 teeth and so on and so forth ) prostitute and to do so,I could see him traveling to the East End.