Census

[Ashkenaz]

I was struck by that, too, Ashkenaz - but then I noted that there weren't all that many Jewish-sounding Flower-and-Dean Street residents to start with. I spotted a "Gleisinger" and a "Cohen", but that was about it.

Of the three streets of interest to Kim Rossmo - the geographical profiler, he considers Flower and Dean Street is the most likely street of residence for jtr.

If Rossmo is correct, then we must statistically accept that jtr was unlikely to have been Jewish.

The data for Flower and Dean Street 1881 produces just three Jewish sounding names. I found a Gehringer, a Gleisinger and a Fitzpa ? from a long list of British sounding names.

The data for Flower and Dean Street 1891, produces a few more - Stoffel, Desher,Gesling, Lazarus and Garrutz. Again these few are dwarfed by the number of British sounding names.

Of those men who appear in both censi - long term residents of Flower and Dean Street, there are no Jewish sounding names at all, just British ones.

[claire]

Thanks, Gareth...I'll look them out.

[Sam Flynn]

When did the Jewish exodus to North London start?

In earnest? Probably after the Second World War, although some East End Jews had been drifting northwards before then, albeit in comparatively small numbers. The first "emigres" from the East End to settle in Golders Green seem to have arrived there during the first decade of the 20th Century, which was around about the time that Golders Green crematorium/cemetery was established. However, it would take quite some time before that part of North London could hold claim to being the "promised land". Even by the 1950s, the East End - specifically Hackney - could still boast that it had the largest Jewish population in London.

I wholeheartedly recommend Modern British Jewry, by Geoffrey Alderman, and Jews of Britain, 1656-2000 by Todd Endelman. Both offer absorbing accounts of this fascinating aspect of British social history.

[claire]

Hi Sam,
How exciting! Thanks for that spreadsheet--I'm a bit of a spreadsheet addict, so this will be fun to browse That's a big piece of work by Mr Scott there; again, highly impressive.

I hear what you're saying about the census-raking. But, as you say and as I hinted before, it may not provide anything definitive in the JtR suspect stakes, but there's a lot more there which is absolutely fascinating.

When did the Jewish exodus to North London start?

[Sam Flynn]

Amazing. Not a single Jewish sounding name left by 1891.

I was struck by that, too, Ashkenaz - but then I noted that there weren't all that many Jewish-sounding Flower-and-Dean Street residents to start with. I spotted a "Gleisinger" and a "Cohen", but that was about it.

[Ashkenaz]

If you have a pet theory, like, JtR stopped killing because he got on a boat and went to New Zealand or whatever, then you can check all those residents who, right after 1888, bailed to NZ. It'd give some focus to your enquiries, anyhow (not the NZ thing, just having a hypothesis to test). Me, I don't think he stuck around. So I'd exclude those (for the first go round) who appear on both censuses. Then, as you disprove hypotheses, you can delete names.

I also believe that jtr probably emigrated. It seems to be what most poor people dreamed of doing at the time. It explains the ceasation.

He was also a young man, why on earth wouldn't he want to leave the East End ? The grass probably was greener over there then.

Another idea could be to produce a list of those East Enders, or perhaps those of the three streets mentioned earlier, who left for the new world from Autumn 1888, to say 1890. A mammoth task of course, but passenger lists may still survive from those times. We would once again de-list the females, together with the males under 17 and over 50, so that only men who fit the psycholical profile regarding age remained.

Thence,we would be looking for crimes of this type against women in New York City, Boston and other US cities on the eastern seaboard. As well of course should be considered other poular destinations in other countries

[Ashkenaz]

A (very) quick and dirty survey of those entries Chris posted reveals that, of about 783 entries in total (inclusive of both censuses), only 34 male residents of 1881 seem to have still been there in 1891. They were:

John Alexander
Charles Beams/Beans
John Brooks
John Brown
William Brown
William Callaghan
Frederick Clarke
James Clarke
James Connor
John Cooney
John Crawley
James/John Fuller
James Hill
Thomas Jenkins
Thomas Johnson
William Johnson
John Jones
Thomas Jones
William Jones
John/Edward Lane
John/George/Alexander Mason
John Moore
Joseph Norton
Edwin Smith
George Smith
George Smith
Henry Smith
Thomas Smith
John Sullivan
John Taylor
George Walker
John White
Jack Williams

Note that the forenames with "/"s against them might have been from the same family. Whilst no single name appears in both censuses, I've made the assumption that at least one member of the family remained in Flower & Dean, possibly using a middle name in one census compared to the other.

This is very rough and ready, but it shows a little of what we're up against. In Flower & Dean Street at least, it seems that only circa 5% of the males from those samples taken in 1881 and 1891 were "long-term" residents of that street.

Amazing. Not a single Jewish sounding name left by 1891. They really were a people on the move.

[Sam Flynn]

If you think those lists are impressive, Claire, check out Chris's transcripts of the Whitechapel Infirmary records for 88/89. I've created a spreadsheet from them and added a few extra columns for my own analysis purposes, but the considerable grunt work was done by the estimable Mr Scott. You can download a copy of the spreadsheet here.

As to the census, I've often mused myself that we might be able to throw a net around London and, by a process of elimination, find the blighter on the basis that "he must be in there somewhere". However, once you realise the sheer number of people involved and factor in the inaccuracy and incompleteness of the records, as well as the transitory nature of the population, then it becomes more of an exercise in optimism than detective-work. Plus, it has to be said, it all too often degenerates into "I think it was him... perhaps not... then HIM! ... dead end... erm, OK then... what about THIS one?" (repeat a few dozen times until interest wanes).

Not that I wish to rain on any parades - on the contrary, "census-sweeping" is something I personally enjoy - it's just that I appreciate what a mammoth undertaking such a thing would be. It's hard enough, sometimes, to track known relatives - but "the man without a name"? All I can say is "Good luck"

The good news is that learning about these people, whether we find JTR or not, is a richly rewarding exercise in itself.

[claire]

Hi Claire

In your opinion, is there any validity to my idea ? It seems we are fresh out of ideas, given the paucity of clues.

It seems a breath of fresh air to me..

Well, you know, given Chris's lists (sorry, it's taken me this long to scrape myself up off the floor--that's incredible, Chris; I am in awe), I think you at least have a starting point. Of course, it's not a question of just looking down lists and suddenly gasping with realisation, but you knew that. I think if you are prepared to do the legwork (which, from now on, I shall call the Chris Scott work in homage), then you have a basis for testing a hypothesis. Why the hell not? It's something to work on rather than banging your head against the GSG, or burying yourself in Astrakhan If you have a pet theory, like, JtR stopped killing because he got on a boat and went to New Zealand or whatever, then you can check all those residents who, right after 1888, bailed to NZ. It'd give some focus to your enquiries, anyhow (not the NZ thing, just having a hypothesis to test). Me, I don't think he stuck around. So I'd exclude those (for the first go round) who appear on both censuses. Then, as you disprove hypotheses, you can delete names.

Why the hell not? If you dressed it up as a study of mobility amongst slum dwellers, dossers and the Whitechapel poor, you'd probably get someone to offer you a desk somewhere to research it, at least Good luck...and keep us posted!

[Sam Flynn]

A (very) quick and dirty survey of those entries Chris posted reveals that, of about 783 entries in total (inclusive of both censuses), only 34 male residents of 1881 seem to have still been there in 1891. They were:

John Alexander
Charles Beams/Beans
John Brooks
John Brown
William Brown
William Callaghan
Frederick Clarke
James Clarke
James Connor
John Cooney
John Crawley
James/John Fuller
James Hill
Thomas Jenkins
Thomas Johnson
William Johnson
John Jones
Thomas Jones
William Jones
John/Edward Lane
John/George/Alexander Mason
John Moore
Joseph Norton
Edwin Smith
George Smith
George Smith
Henry Smith
Thomas Smith
John Sullivan
John Taylor
George Walker
John White
Jack Williams

Note that the forenames with "/"s against them might have been from the same family. Whilst no single name appears in both censuses, I've made the assumption that at least one member of the family remained in Flower & Dean, possibly using a middle name in one census compared to the other.

This is very rough and ready, but it shows a little of what we're up against. In Flower & Dean Street at least, it seems that only circa 5% of the males from those samples taken in 1881 and 1891 were "long-term" residents of that street.

[Chris Scott]

For reasons of formatting the 1891 census data is less straightforward to interrogate than the 1881 data. In simple terms this means that it is not possible to specify streetname as a criterion. The only way to interrogate is to know the piece, folio and page number for all pages which includes that address. For example, Flower and Dean Street is covered in London/Christchurch/Spitalfields/District 5 and runs from RG273/134/35 to RG273/141/50.
The trade off for this method is that is not possible to specify an age range, but it is possible to specify gender. So what you get is a full listing of all males for that street. Also instead of a straight alpha run, you get an alpha run per page.

Within these restrictions, below is a full listing for all males living in Flower and Dean Street in the 1891 census:

William Addison abt 1857 Birmingham Boarder Christchurch, London
Richard Ash abt 1853 St Georges est, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Noah Bradshaw abt 1812 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Albert Brooker abt 1884 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Brooker abt 1873 Hackney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Brooker abt 1835 Luton, Bedfordshire, England Lodger Christchurch, London
George Brooker abt 1870 Bermondsey, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Carten abt 1829 Edmonton Boarder Christchurch, London
John Davis abt 1860 Islington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Mark Elliott abt 1841 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Freund abt 1831 Clerkenwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Humphrey Emily I abt 1839 Wantage, Berkshire, England Head Christchurch, London
Alfred I Humphrey Alfred, Emily I abt 1871 Stepney, London, England Son Christchurch, London
George Humphrey Alfred, Emily I abt 1879 Spitalfields, London, England Son Christchurch, London
William H Humphrey Alfred, Emily I abt 1874 Spitalfields, London, England Son Christchurch, London
Thomas Hunt abt 1846 St Luke, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William MacKay abt 1869 Wapping, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Russell abt 1858 Bow, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Russell abt 1891 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Anderson abt 1847 Margate Boarder Christchurch, London
Daniel Connor abt 1890 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Connor abt 1863 Dartford, Kent, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Crawley abt 1851 Shadwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Drew abt 1843 Mile End, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Entress abt 1852 United States Boarder Christchurch, London
William Mackey abt 1848 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Sarter abt 1867 St Georges, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frank Sayers abt 1864 Chatham Boarder Christchurch, London
John Sharp abt 1822 NY Boarder Christchurch, London
Harry Stevens abt 1852 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Stoffel abt 1850 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Taylor abt 1861 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Taylor abt 1823 Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
James Barrett abt 1870 Newmarket Boarder Christchurch, London
Harry Buxton abt 1872 Notting Hill, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Cox abt 1870 Kingsland, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frank Hamilton abt 1846 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Hamilton abt 1882 Sowugh, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Harman abt 1861 Balls Cond, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Jenkins abt 1852 Mile End, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Walter Larder abt 1868 Stratford, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Harry Lykes abt 1850 Sevenoaks Boarder Christchurch, London
George Meakin abt 1876 Brentford Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Meakin abt 1860 St Luke's, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Nuffer abt 1866 Woolwich Boarder Christchurch, London
George Sayce abt 1864 St Georges, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Smith abt 1853 Bermondsey, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Watkins abt 1866 Stepney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Welsh abt 1863 Hampshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Backer abt 1868 Hackney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Barry abt 1866 Spitalfields, London, England Christchurch, London
William Bonser abt 1851 Bethnal Green, London, England Christchurch, London
Harry Chitty abt 1855 Ramsgate Christchurch, London
Joseph Davis abt 1849 Borough, London, England Christchurch, London
John Eason abt 1865 St Georges, London, England Christchurch, London
James French abt 1861 St Luke, London, England Christchurch, London
David Jenkins abt 1887 Whitechapel, London, England Christchurch, London
Thomas Jenkins abt 1855 Hooton, London, England Christchurch, London
William Jones abt 1841 St Luke, London, England Christchurch, London
Charles Murray abt 1859 St Georges East, London, England Christchurch, London
James Potter abt 1855 Cambridgeshire, England Christchurch, London
Frank Ray abt 1855 Bury St Edmunds Christchurch, London
George Stevens abt 1861 Shoreditch, London, England Christchurch, London
John Bown abt 1849 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Coote abt 1848 Hook; Hampton Boarder Christchurch, London
William Coote abt 1888 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Hildon abt 1863 St Albans, Hertfordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Joseph Jones abt 1873 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Langham abt 1860 St Luke's, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Perry abt 1890 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Robinson abt 1867 Hackney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Shepherd abt 1848 Old Ford, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Michael Slate abt 1854 Finsbury, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Sparks abt 1848 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Stanley abt 1836 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Joseph Tempest abt 1863 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Joseph Tempest abt 1889 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Watson abt 1886 Cardiff Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Watson abt 1861 Gateshead On Lyne Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Watson abt 1890 Shrewsbury Boarder Christchurch, London
John White abt 1861 St George East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Adamy abt 1864 Lambeth, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Bedle abt 1827 Bennington, Hertfordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Begley abt 1819 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Jeremiah Collins abt 1846 St Luke's, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Floyd abt 1853 Herefordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Hugh Floyd abt 1881 Lancashire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Harr abt 1828 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Hom abt 1848 Suffolk, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Huntington abt 1855 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Mason abt 1860 Stepney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John McCarthy abt 1855 West Ham, Essex, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John P McCarthy abt 1889 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William G Mead abt 1855 Hull, Yorkshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Murphy abt 1886 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Daniel Murphy abt 1858 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Proctor abt 1854 Gravesend Boarder Christchurch, London
George E Spamer abt 1860 Islington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Strane abt 1839 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Walen abt 1890 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George William abt 1856 St Luke, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Beams abt 1854 Chris Stall, Essex, England Christchurch, London
Frederick Collins abt 1852 London, England Christchurch, London
Frederick Collins abt 1888 St Georges East, London, England Christchurch, London
James Collins abt 1886 St Georges East, London, England Christchurch, London
John Copten abt 1851 Bethnal Green, London, England Christchurch, London
William Desher abt 1856 Spitalfields, London, England Christchurch, London
William Desher abt 1890 Christchurch, London
William Gesling abt 1846 St Clement, London, England Christchurch, London
Henry Lazarus abt 1859 Whitechapel, London, England Christchurch, London
Joseph Norton abt 1857 Leicestershire, England Christchurch, London
Joseph Norton abt 1883 Bethnal Green, London, England Christchurch, London
Charles Owen abt 1858 Brompton, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Skeet abt 1862 Bethnal Green, London, England Christchurch, London
William Walters abt 1848 Paddington, London, England Christchurch, London
Frederick W Wilkinson abt 1856 Manchester Christchurch, London
Allen Woolgar abt 1846 Chertsey Christchurch, London
Harry Woolgar abt 1878 Chertsey Christchurch, London
Hary Blondin abt 1853 France Boarder Christchurch, London
James Borwick abt 1850 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Burns abt 1827 Dublin, Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
James Burroughs abt 1845 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Casey abt 1823 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Connor abt 1873 Maidstone, Kent, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Crough abt 1835 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Dennis abt 1874 Croydon Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Doolan abt 1873 Midlothian (Edinburgh), Scotland Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Elevey abt 1851 Oxfordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Arthur Glendening abt 1854 Leicestershire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Hill abt 1851 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Hingst abt 1849 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Albert Hollington abt 1862 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James McCauley abt 1872 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Perryman abt 1827 Hackney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Roberts abt 1841 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edwin Silver abt 1872 Leicestershire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Leopold Silver abt 1874 Sweden Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Skeet abt 1872 St Georges East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Arthur Wellesley abt 1837 Chatham Boarder Christchurch, London
Joseph Baian abt 1863 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Beard abt 1841 Tottenham Boarder Christchurch, London
John Brooks abt 1853 Stepney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Damin abt 1875 Blackfriars, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Daniels abt 1872 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Ford abt 1872 Manchester Boarder Christchurch, London
Michael Garvey abt 1873 St Luke, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Glinn abt 1856 Finsbury, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Hayward abt 1874 Clerkenwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Hohner abt 1834 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Lawes abt 1832 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Archibald McKenny abt 1889 Poplar, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Murphy abt 1859 Walsall, Staffordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Walker abt 1842 Islington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Wilkinson abt 1875 Islington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Bridgman abt 1860 N Boarder Christchurch, London
William Collins abt 1890 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Connor abt 1853 Clerkenwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Crippin abt 1856 Canterbury Boarder Christchurch, London
John Hardy abt 1853 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Hurley abt 1863 St Georges East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Kelley abt 1889 St Giles, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Kells abt 1829 Halifax, Canada Boarder Christchurch, London
George King abt 1867 St Giles, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Phillip A Scales abt 1873 Blackhiam, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Simmonds abt 1861 Hackney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edwin Smith abt 1849 Islington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Robert Strings abt 1860 Blackfrian, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas White abt 1865 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Banks abt 1849 Hastings Boarder Christchurch, London
Edwin Butcher abt 1844 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Daniel Carter abt 1858 Wapping, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Chalkley abt 1861 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Cooney Elizabeth abt 1856 City Road, London, England Head Christchurch, London
Alfred Davies abt 1857 Clerkenwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Davis abt 1856 Liverpool Boarder Christchurch, London
John Davis abt 1855 St Georges East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Gale abt 1846 Hooton, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edwin J Harrison abt 1852 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Peter H??Ffins abt 1832 Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Johnson abt 1871 St Giles, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Moree abt 1846 St Georges est, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Nack abt 1891 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Nack abt 1889 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Reynolds abt 1823 Hertford, Hertfordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward William abt 1859 Mile End, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Adams abt 1846 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Adams abt 1880 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Arthur Ashby abt 1855 Croydon, Surrey, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Daniel Burns abt 1830 Shadwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Clark abt 1858 Nepney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Clarke abt 1824 Hackney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Cooley abt 1851 Lambeth, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Edwards abt 1860 Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
James Hariston abt 1839 Canada Boarder Christchurch, London
Michael Hyma abt 1841 Shadwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Jenkins abt 1844 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Dennis Ready abt 1854 Cork, Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
William Rosier abt 1851 Slough, Berkshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Stocks abt 1823 Hoke Ferry, Norfolk, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Stocks abt 1871 Dartford, Kent, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Albert Taylor abt 1871 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Warne abt 1831 Islington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Michael White abt 1827 Dublin, Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
Norman Connon abt 1823 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Dart abt 1864 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Devine abt 1873 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Philip Harriss abt 1867 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Hayes abt 1851 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Walter Heddy abt 1863 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Hennessey abt 1861 Highgate, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Robert James abt 1875 Limehouse, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry King abt 1862 Liverpool Boarder Christchurch, London
John Lawrence abt 1823 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Jeremiah Marply abt 1846 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John McGinty abt 1871 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Roberts abt 1861 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Steel abt 1834 Walsall Boarder Christchurch, London
James Steel abt 1882 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Sullivan abt 1857 Bristol Boarder Christchurch, London
John Symes abt 1856 Bow, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Arthur West abt 1865 Limehouse, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Askin abt 1833 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Brown abt 1834 Staffordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Brown abt 1871 St Georges East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas O Connor abt 1857 Lanerick, Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
John Davis abt 1852 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Edwards abt 1863 Lambeth, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Fair abt 1827 Stepney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Patrick Garuty abt 1849 Lanarkshire (Glasgow), Scotland Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Golding abt 1876 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Benjamin S Graham abt 1816 Scotland Boarder Christchurch, London
Joseph Graham abt 1873 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Haak abt 1843 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Harrison abt 1861 Newport Boarder Christchurch, London
Edwin Jones abt 1881 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Ketdup abt 1843 Barking, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Leay abt 1874 St Georges East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Jeremiah Marshall abt 1819 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Sebastion abt 1837 Sevenoaks Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Severns abt 1863 Hoxton, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Sullivan abt 1827 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Samuel Allum abt 1845 Colchester Boarder Christchurch, London
Ernest Best abt 1871 Stoke Newington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Cox abt 1864 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Dawes abt 1834 West Ham, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Michael Donovan abt 1863 Borough, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Joseph Garrutz abt 1889 Hartlepool Boarder Christchurch, London
Michael Garrutz abt 1881 Hartlepool Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Garrutz abt 1887 Hartlepool Boarder Christchurch, London
William May abt 1857 Minories, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Robert Taylor abt 1843 Northamptonshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Robert Taylor abt 1890 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Wadi abt 1850 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Wright abt 1861 Holborn, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Wright abt 1889 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Bacon Annie abt 1847 Bethnal Green, London, England Head Christchurch, London
William Bishop abt 1870 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Gilbey James, Jane abt 1885 Spitalfields, London, England Son Christchurch, London
George Gilbey James, Jane abt 1882 Spitalfields, London, England Son Christchurch, London
James Gilbey Jane abt 1852 Wapping, London, England Head Christchurch, London
James Gilbey James, Jane abt 1880 Spitalfields, London, England Son Christchurch, London
Benjamin Harpley Sarah abt 1838 London, England Head Christchurch, London
Thomas Jones abt 1859 Wapping, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Level abt 1855 Islington, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Edward Robinson abt 1856 Portsmouth Boarder Christchurch, London
James Sansom Sarah abt 1851 Stopsley, London, England Head Christchurch, London
Thomas Tiffin abt 1847 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Alexander abt 1851 Edmonton Boarder Christchurch, London
George Bayt abt 1862 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Bram abt 1867 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Brett abt 1853 Coventry, Warwickshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Evington abt 1876 Elstree Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Gibson abt 1831 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Humphrys abt 1826 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Humphrys abt 1851 Taunton Boarder Christchurch, London
George Jackson abt 1855 Rowsley, Derbyshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Johnson abt 1851 Derbyshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Johnson abt 1891 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Kelley abt 1843 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George King abt 1853 Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
John O'Connor abt 1831 Cork, Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Spicer abt 1841 Gloucestershire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Albert Ward abt 1885 St Georges East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Ward abt 1836 Stepney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Ward abt 1882 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Philip Carney abt 1854 Holborn, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Collaway abt 1837 Creenwich Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Conners abt 1834 Borough, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Daley abt 1846 Uttoxeter, Derbyshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Humphrey Davis abt 1819 Holbon, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Edwards abt 1846 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Evans abt 1863 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Finberg abt 1851 Spitalfields, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Mike Jones abt 1831 Canterbury, Kent, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Peter Jones abt 1865 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Jones abt 1841 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Lane abt 1821 Exeter, Devon, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Murphy abt 1851 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Read abt 1864 Hooton, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Ready abt 1854 Limehouse, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Smith abt 1859 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Frederick Styles abt 1865 Wapping, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Arthur White abt 1862 Limehouse, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Mike White abt 1845 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Jack Williams abt 1853 Ireland Boarder Christchurch, London
Abram Berman abt 1875 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Moses Berman abt 1874 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Callaghan Mary A abt 1841 St Georges East, London, England Head Christchurch, London
Henry Cole abt 1831 Stepney, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Collins abt 1872 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Connors abt 1863 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Alfred Cring abt 1863 Wapping, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Abram Freedman abt 1875 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Fuller abt 1823 Boarder Christchurch, London
William Hannigan abt 1834 Boarder Christchurch, London
David Helley abt 1869 Bristol Boarder Christchurch, London
John Hurley abt 1871 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Johnson abt 1859 Lanchouse, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles Jones abt 1855 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Jones abt 1846 London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
David Morgan abt 1875 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Rielly abt 1867 Bristol Boarder Christchurch, London
James Seal abt 1866 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Shane abt 1838 Germany Boarder Christchurch, London
Michael Singleton abt 1865 Shoreditch, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Henry Smith abt 1864 Holborn, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Walter J Wright abt 1872 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Harry Bennett abt 1845 Warwickshire, England Boarder Christchurch, London
John Bradley abt 1849 Bermondsey, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Samuel Dinsdale abt 1835 Clerkenwell, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Corneluis Hanlon William, Bridget abt 1873 Wapping, London, England Son Christchurch, London
William Hanlon Bridget abt 1846 Bath Head Christchurch, London
Thomas Herdland abt 1866 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Thomas Herdland abt 1889 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
William Herdland abt 1890 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
James Hurley abt 1872 Whitechapel, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Charles McCarthy Ellen abt 1849 Cork, Ireland Head Christchurch, London
Charles McCarthy Charles, Ellen abt 1881 Shoreditch, London, England Son Christchurch, London
Rayner ??Beth abt 1851 St Georges East, London, England Head Christchurch, London
Robert Skinner abt 1849 St Georges East, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Smith abt 1857 Bethnal Green, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
George Smith abt 1869 St Lukes, London, England Boarder Christchurch, London
Harry Watson Mary J abt 1851 Soho, London, England Head Christchurch, London
Henry Watson Harry, Mary J abt 1884 Soho, London, England Son Christchurch, London
James Wright abt 1856 Oldford, London, England Head Christchurch, London

[Ashkenaz]

Hello Ashkenaz,More to the point, many others might have moved into those streets (and probably did) in the intervening 7 years, during which time many of those listed may have moved out of Whitechapel, the East End, or even England - many emigrated to America..

You are right of course, any or all of these may have been the case.

It would be interesting to compare the two censi (if thats the plural ?). It would be interesting to see how much the population had changed.

He may have stayed closer to home, in Hanbury Street or Brick Lane, or any number of other streets in the neighbourhood, in which case it's extremely unlikely that we'd find him by focusing on a handful of streets in the vicinity of Flower & Dean in 1881. He may not have lived in central Whitechapel, or London, at that time at all..

Ys he may have lived in other streets. I dont really understand the geographical profilers belief hat jtr probably lived in one of the thre streets discussed sofar. But I'm happy to go with it for now, for the same reason I'm happy to go with the psychological profile.

As for living in other areas of London, again, it could have been so, but many believe he was a local man. A working man who lived in Whitechapel. He certainly knew his way around Whitechapel.

A lot could happen in seven years in that part of the world. At least with the 1891 census we only have a gap of just over two years to worry about, so the number of comings and goings would have been much less than those that occurred in the years between 1881 and 1888. .

I think the 1891 census is just as important as the one prior to it. It would be foolish to dismiss it. I hope Chris produces all the data for that year too, as he has done for 1881. Once its here in this thread, it is available to all interested in this idea.

Jack may well have been in prison or dead by 1891, but if he didn't live in central Whitechapel during 1881, he may as well have been dead - at least in terms of the very small slice of census data we're looking at here.

You've made some good points Sam. I think the later census certainly wants considering. Timewise, it is much closer to the autumn of terror.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Ashkenaz,

That still leaves 75% of Flower and Dean street. 100% of Thrawl Street, and 100% of Fashion Street. It's still a creditable enquiry... They may have moved into other doss houses further down the street.

More to the point, many others might have moved into those streets (and probably did) in the intervening 7 years, during which time many of those listed may have moved out of Whitechapel, the East End, or even England - many emigrated to America. He may have stayed closer to home, in Hanbury Street or Brick Lane, or any number of other streets in the neighbourhood, in which case it's extremely unlikely that we'd find him by focusing on a handful of streets in the vicinity of Flower & Dean in 1881. He may not have lived in central Whitechapel, or London, at that time at all.

A lot could happen in seven years in that part of the world. At least with the 1891 census we only have a gap of just over two years to worry about, so the number of comings and goings would have been much less than those that occurred in the years between 1881 and 1888. Jack may well have been in prison or dead by 1891, but if he didn't live in central Whitechapel during 1881, he may as well have been dead - at least in terms of the very small slice of census data we're looking at here.

[Ashkenaz]

Indeed, Ashkenaz - Chris is a phenomenon! .

Indeed he is.

However, the issue over the Flower & Dean demolition in 1883 still applies.

Yes, some housing you tell us was demolished to make way for the Rothschild building. About a quarter of the houses were knocked down you tell us in a previous post.

That still leaves 75% of Flower and Dean street. 100% of Thrawl Street, and 100% of Fashion Street. It's still a creditable enquiry

, as does the possibility - probability? - that most of those residents of 1881 would not have been there in 1888, and that goes for all streets across the board. .

This cannot be known for sure. They may have moved into other doss houses further down the street. Some of those houses had 50 + people in them ! I imagine few, if any were turned away from any doss house.

On that basis, the "least worst" data in respect of possible residents in 1888 might actually lie in the 1891 Census.

It could be Sam.

However, many people think the ripper killings ceased in 1888. The theories mooted to accommodate this, are that jtr was dead, imprisoned, or had perhaps fled the country. So of course, should any of these possibilities be correct, then JTR will not appear on the 1891 census.

Another point, is that we know for certain that jtr was alive in 1881, the same cannot be said of 1891.

It could be however, that he was incapacitated, an this would also explain the cessation of further murders.

Illness of course was just around the corner for most working class people in those days, as was what we would consider an early death.

He may even have received some of his own medicine. Perhaps he was incapacitated in a terrible beating in a mugging/street robbery - not an uncommon thing in those days.

What a nice thought !

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you Chris.
There is no way I could have muddled through that, and gotten the job done !

Indeed, Ashkenaz - Chris is a phenomenon! However, the issue over the Flower & Dean demolition in 1883 still applies, as does the possibility - probability? - that most of those residents of 1881 would not have been there in 1888, and that goes for all streets across the board. On that basis, the "least worst" data in respect of possible residents in 1888 might actually lie in the 1891 Census.