The Bucks Row Project Summary Report.

[Fisherman]

We can't say that about Cross, either. Only the Bucks Row murder checks out in terms of time or place; as for the rest of the murders, Cross's presence at the relevant times and places is even more speculative than my positing that "Joe Bloggs" of Thrawl Street was out and about at the given times. At least Joe Bloggs needed no excuse to be in the area, and he didn't have to stray too far from home to commit the crimes.

Furthermore, there were thousands of men like him in Whitechapel, and on statistical grounds alone it's a dead cert that there'd have been scores of these, perhaps more, who'd have made far more likely Ripper candidates than Charles Cross. No need for a work rota, no need for a familial connection to the site of Stride's murder, no work connections needed to be in the vicinity of Mitre Square. Being local, they'd have had the freedom of the district, and could have been at any of the murder sites (and back) within a few minutes.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Cross was at 29 Hanbury Street, Berner Street, Mitre Square or Miller's Court, and it would be much easier for Joe Bloggs to have been at those sites at any time of the morning than it ever would be for Cross.

Problem: There is no Joe Bloggs we know of. And if we did, he would not even be a person of interest. Living nearby a murder scene is not suspicious in any shape or form. That´s where you shipwreck your argument totally.

[Sam Flynn]

Problem: There is no Joe Bloggs we know of.

There are thousands of them. They're all there in the censuses, electoral rolls and various other registers.

Living nearby a murder scene is not suspicious in any shape or form.

But if your mum lives nearby it somehow is?

[Jon Guy]

you cant say that about any other named suspects OR unnamed suspects.

Mad William Seaman was knocking about.
He had ties to the area
Lived in Spitalfields
Attacked someone on Berner Street with a hammer on the night of Annie Chapman`s murder
Later murdered someone by cutting their throat

[Fisherman]

Mad William Seaman was knocking about.
He had ties to the area
Lived in Spitalfields
Attacked someone on Berner Street with a hammer on the night of Annie Chapman`s murder
Later murdered someone by cutting their throat

The problem is that there is nothing to go on at all geographically. Where is his reason to be in Mitre Square? In Berner Street (the fact that he was there in September 8 does not mean that he had a reason to be there on the 30:th)? Where is his reason to be in George Yard, Bucks Row, Dorset Street and Hanbury Street at the relevant hours?

He does not come near Lechmere at all in this discipline, but I would nevertheless say that he is a person of interest - which I would not say about any resident in Commercial Street, the way some people out here do.

[Sam Flynn]

Mad William Seaman was knocking about.
He had ties to the area
Lived in Spitalfields
Attacked someone on Berner Street with a hammer on the night of Annie Chapman`s murder
Later murdered someone by cutting their throat

Perhaps we can rule him out of those Whitechapel Murders where no traces of Seaman were found

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: There are thousands of them. They're all there in the censuses, electoral rolls and various other registers.

Then it should pose no problem to present a few thousand of them who had a reason to be at all the murder sites at the relevant hours. Keep them coming, by all means!
PREDICTION/PROMISE: There will not be a single one presented.

But if your mum lives nearby it somehow is?

No. That is nothing but a conscious misrepresentation on your behalf, a very sad thing to resort to.

It is not suspicous to have your mum living near a murder spot. But it represents a reason to visit the area, not least if that mother also have your daughter living with her. NOW try and twist it!

[Fisherman]

Perhaps we can rule him out of those Whitechapel Murders where no traces of Seaman were found

No, Gareth, you can´t, since he lived in the area. That is - according to yourself - the most important geographical criteria there is and a surefire route to suspect status.

[Jon Guy]

Perhaps we can rule him out of those Whitechapel Murders where no traces of Seaman were found

Boom boom

[Jon Guy]

The problem is that there is nothing to go on at all geographically. Where is his reason to be in Mitre Square? In Berner Street (the fact that he was there in September 8 does not mean that he had a reason to be there on the 30:th)?

There was no reason for Seaman to be wandering down Berner Street with a hammer on Sept 8th. Why should he need one for Sept 30th

Where is his reason to be in George Yard, Bucks Row, Dorset Street and Hanbury Street at the relevant hours?

He wandered around at night, and lived in Spitalfields.
He was a jobless nutter who spent a lot of his time idling around fashioning the blade on a knife that he picked up when working on the Regents Canal.

[Sam Flynn]

No, Gareth, you can´t, since he lived in the area. That is - according to yourself - the most important geographical criteria there is and a surefire route to suspect status.

Actually, that was just a joke. Even if he wasn't the Ripper, William Seaman is only the tip of the iceberg. There would have been loads of men like him in Whitechapel, not all of them known to posterity or to the Law.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps we can rule him out of those Whitechapel Murders where no traces of Seaman were found

now that was funny.

[Fisherman]

Actually, that was just a joke. Even if he wasn't the Ripper, William Seaman is only the tip of the iceberg. There would have been loads of men like him in Whitechapel, not all of them known to posterity or to the Law.

Yes, I know it was a joke, I have heard the seaman/semen joke many times. What I said was dead serious, however. William Seaman, tip of the iceberg or not, is not proven to have been present or indeed to have had any reason at all to be present at any of the murder sites, and so he stands a million miles back to Lechmere in that respect.

If he is the tip of the iceberg, your Titanic misconception of geographical implications just had a very abrupt meeting with him.

And yes, that was a joke too.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy: There was no reason for Seaman to be wandering down Berner Street with a hammer on Sept 8th. Why should he need one for Sept 30th?

I haven´t the foggiest, Jon. I am quite certain that he could have had a reason just as he could have had no reason to be there. The crux is that we are discussing who we know of that DID have reasons to be at the different murder spots at the relevant hours, and that discipline has Lechmere outclassing the rest of the - so far almost 100 per cent unnamed - field.

He wandered around at night, and lived in Spitalfields.
He was a jobless nutter who spent a lot of his time idling around fashioning the blade on a knife that he picked up when working on the Regents Canal.

Nutters, yes - they will surface every now and then. And each and every one of them who cannot be exonerated MAY have been the Ripper. But to be fair, the people/persons of interest/suspects that can be shown to have been around or to have had reason to be around the murder spots at the relevant hours take precedence over nutters/people/persons of interest/suspects that cannot be shown to have been present or had a reason to be present at the murder sites at the relevant hours. I fail to see how anyone can disagree with that, so I will just make the supposition that you agree. Otherwise, let me know.

[Jon Guy]

Jon Guy: There was no reason for Seaman to be wandering down Berner Street with a hammer on Sept 8th. Why should he need one for Sept 30th?

I haven´t the foggiest, Jon. I am quite certain that he could have had a reason just as he could have had no reason to be there. The crux is that we are discussing who we know of that DID have reasons to be at the different murder spots at the relevant hours, and that discipline has Lechmere outclassing the rest of the - so far almost 100 per cent unnamed - field.

He wandered around at night, and lived in Spitalfields.
He was a jobless nutter who spent a lot of his time idling around fashioning the blade on a knife that he picked up when working on the Regents Canal.

Nutters, yes - they will surface every now and then. And each and every one of them who cannot be exonerated MAY have been the Ripper. But to be fair, the people/persons of interest/suspects that can be shown to have been around or to have had reason to be around the murder spots at the relevant hours take precedence over nutters/people/persons of interest/suspects that cannot be shown to have been present or had a reason to be present at the murder sites at the relevant hours. I fail to see how anyone can disagree with that, so I will just make the supposition that you agree. Otherwise, let me know.

I`m sorry, Christer. I disagree.
Seaman is a proven homicidal lunatic who lived at the centre of the murders.
Proven homicidal lunatics win everytime

[Sam Flynn]

Jon Guy: There was no reason for Seaman to be wandering down Berner Street with a hammer on Sept 8th. Why should he need one for Sept 30th?

I haven´t the foggiest, Jon. I am quite certain that he could have had a reason just as he could have had no reason to be there. The crux is that we are discussing who we know of that DID have reasons to be at the different murder spots at the relevant hours

We simply don't know that Cross had reasons to be anywhere, other than on his journey to work on the 31st August. It's pure supposition that he had any reason to be at the other scenes of crime at the relevant times.

Apropos Jon's very cogent point about William Seaman: killers don't "need" reasons to be anywhere. But they do have needs, and these can take them anywhere without having recourse to any timetables, fixed routemaps, or conjectured visits to mum.

, and that discipline has Lechmere outclassing the rest of the - so far almost 100 per cent unnamed - field

They're all named in the censuses, electoral rolls and other registers. Thousands of them.