Ocupants of Miller's Court

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Paddy, Lottie and Julia are indeed one and the same, in post #11 of this thread;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2478

"Hi Jon, I found that Lottie Owen was Julia Venturney. I dont know if this was discovered before?
She took her mothers name Charlotte for some reason when she lived with Owen in Millers court..
She had two girls. One was backward and in an asylum all her life and the other died young. Sad ..."

Thanks Paddy!

[Joshua Rogan]

I didn't know Kitty Ronan was known by the surname Norman?

I did find an account of Lottie living at no.13 in the account of Kit Watkins 1892 visit. I'm sure I've read it before, but it's not actually the one I was thinking of earlier;

"Elizabeth [Prater] then took Kit across the court to meet the current occupant of Mary Kelly's still blood stained room of number 13, a lady who went by the name of "Lottie".

"I was her friend" said Lottie, speaking with difficulty because of a broken and battered nose given to her by a kick from her husband's heavy boot. "I was living further up the court then. She (Mary Kelly) says `I'm afraid to go out alone at night because of a dream I had that a man was murdering me. Maybe I'll be next. They say Jack's been busy in this quarter'. She said it with such a laugh ma'am that it just made me creep. And been sure enough ma'am she was the next to go. I heard her through the night singin' - she had a nice voice - "The violets grow on your mothers grave" - but that's all we 'urd". Lottie seemed to have no repugnance in sleeping in the room with its now blood blackened walls."

Interesting that Lottie apparently says she lived "further up the court", instead of something like "directly opposite" as no.1 was....if Lottie was indeed Julia, that is.

[MysterySinger]

I too read that Henry and Lottie owen later occupied Mary Kelly's room.

Gauvan and Govan sounds like you may have a link.

Another thought - Elizabeth Norman at 7 Miller's Court - some relative of Kitty Norman (Ronan) maybe?

[Joshua Rogan]

Woo, thanks Debs!

[Debra A]

Here's a couple:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11354&page=3

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3640

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/5739.html

[Debra A]

Really? I thought Leather Apron was supposed to be a shoe-maker, not a porter. I don't suppose you have a handy link to one of these old threads?

I think it was Chris Scott who first found a newspaper reference to the death of a man named Julius Lipman, said to have died in Mile End (in a specific year I can't remember offhand but in early 1900 I think) who claimed to have been badly affected for the rest of his life by being suspected of being 'Leather Apron' during the murders. The only death in that certain year in Mile End (or London) was for a Barney Lipman. There have been several discussions about Barney as there were a couple of men with the same name. One was a lodging house keeper in Dorset St but he was still alive later in the 1900s. I'm not sure which one the Miller's Court man is now, it was a while back.
I'll look for a link but you might be able to google it with a few keywords if I don't get chance.

[Joshua Rogan]

Barney Lipman's name comes up a lot in old discussions of leather apron.

Really? I thought Leather Apron was supposed to be a shoe-maker, not a porter. I don't suppose you have a handy link to one of these old threads?

[Debra A]

Mmm, interesting post in that thread from Chris Scott;


chris
19th January 2008, 12:48 AM
I have started a separate thread with details of Mary Cluley, a prostitute living in Millers Court very shortly after the Kelly murder.
Below are details of two other Millers Court residents in the Infirmary shortly after Kelly's death. The surname of the first is hard to decipher and any alternative readings would be welcome. (see images below)

Millers Court
Whitechapel Infirmary Admissions
3 Feb 1889
Thomas Gauven?
Aged 22
6 Millers Court
Single
Shoeblack
Cause: Phthisis
Discharged: 22 Feb 1889
Dead


Could Thomas Gauven be any relation to the Annie Govan I mentioned earlier?

Good spot, JR. I'd say you're on to something there.

[Joshua Rogan]

Mmm, interesting post in that thread from Chris Scott;


chris
19th January 2008, 12:48 AM
I have started a separate thread with details of Mary Cluley, a prostitute living in Millers Court very shortly after the Kelly murder.
Below are details of two other Millers Court residents in the Infirmary shortly after Kelly's death. The surname of the first is hard to decipher and any alternative readings would be welcome. (see images below)

Millers Court
Whitechapel Infirmary Admissions
3 Feb 1889
Thomas Gauven?
Aged 22
6 Millers Court
Single
Shoeblack
Cause: Phthisis
Discharged: 22 Feb 1889
Dead


Could Thomas Gauven be any relation to the Annie Govan I mentioned earlier?

[Joshua Rogan]

This may help?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18566

Thanks Debs! I will have a squizz

[Joshua Rogan]

13 Miller's Court Thomas Kelly (35) - Waterside Labourer
13 Miller's Court Ann Kelly (39) -
13 Miller's Court Elizabeth Harper (39) - Needlewoman
13 Miller's Court James Harper (42) - Firewood Bundle Maker
13 Miller's Court Mary A Clark (49) - Laundress
13 Miller's Court Charles Clark (13) - Scholar

Or maybe this was the couple I was thinking of?

There seem to be a lot less possible tenants from 1891 than 1881. Then again, I suppose a grisly murder wouldn't have helped the stability of the court's occupants - I read that McCarthy said he'd lost 4 tenants within a few days of the killing. Though it's unclear whether or not that figure included poor Mary....

[Debra A]

Could this Elisabeth Smith be the Liz Smith interviewed in the court in 1888?


Aha, a market porter living at No.3. Is this the man Mary Ann Cox mentioned in her inquest testimony?



I wonder if Kate had wispy red hair?

All fairly long shots, I suppose, given the 7 year gap and transient nature of the inhabitants. But food for thought.

Barney Lipman's name comes up a lot in old discussions of leather apron.

[Joshua Rogan]

Address 1881
2 Miller's Court Alfred Smith (44) - Butcher
2 Miller's Court Elisabeth Smith (39) -
2 Miller's Court Mary Ann Smith (11) -
2 Miller's Court William Whitehead (18) - Hawker
2 Miller's Court Emma Bland (17) -
2 Miller's Court Alfred Whitehead (16) -

Could this Elisabeth Smith be the Liz Smith interviewed in the court in 1888?

3 Miller's Court Barney Lipman (21) - Fish Porter
3 Miller's Court Sophia Palmer (27) -
3 Miller's Court Thomas Carey (27) - Labourer
3 Miller's Court Anne Shay (20) -
3 Miller's Court Nelly Shay (17) -

Aha, a market porter living at No.3. Is this the man Mary Ann Cox mentioned in her inquest testimony?

4 Miller's Court Lawrence McDonald (22) - Labourer GF
4 Miller's Court Sarah McDonald (27) -
4 Miller's Court Eliza Carbin (40) -
4 Miller's Court Kate Carbin (12) -
4 Miller's Court Charles James Carbin (10 months)

I wonder if Kate had wispy red hair?

All fairly long shots, I suppose, given the 7 year gap and transient nature of the inhabitants. But food for thought.

[Joshua Rogan]

The transient nature of the tenants doesn't at all aid the placing of folks in Miller's Court at the time of Kelly's murder. One thing is for sure, there were far more people there than can be listed. If we include 26 Dorset Street (but exclude 27) there are 42 people listed in the 1881 Census and 45 in 1891.

Fantastic MysterySinger, thanks!

The recognisable names in 1891 are Henry and Lottie Owen (Julia Cooke / Venturney, Ventorini or variations thereof).

I remember reading an account of a visit to Room 13 a few years after the murder (possibly 1891?) where a couple were living there; the man lying in bed and showing the still extant bloodstains by his head to the amazed reporter. Could that be Harry and Lottie?

Worth noting that in both the 1888 and 1889 Electoral Register a John Alcock is listed at 7 Miller's Court. Equally interesting that in 1889 at number 26a Dorset Street were Frederick and Samuel Ball. Also, Duncan MacAllen is at number 2 Miller's Court in 1889.

Hmm, John Alcock....John Clark....not too far apart, could be the same occupant of No.7?
I've not heard of 26a before though, any idea where this would be?

Ominously, John Death and his family are shown at 26 Dorset Street in the 1881 Census.

Wow! Do you think he might be the Ripper? Could the mutilations have been carried out with a scythe?

[Debra A]

Is there a full list of the inhabitants of Miller's Court at the time of Kelly's murder?

Post #3 in the thread below contains a map of the court which puts names to many of the inhabitants, but I'm not sure of the provenance of them all. Can anyone help?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9437

So far I've got;

No.1 - Julia Vanturney & Harry Owen, inquest testimony
No.2 - the Keyler's, according to Mrs Kennedy/Sarah Lewis, any others?
No.3 - a man who was a market porter, according to the Echo 10th Nov
No.4 - Unknown
No.5 - Mary Ann Cox - inquest testimony
No.6 - Unknown
No.7 - John Clark - ?
No.8 - Elizabeth Bushman - ?
No.9 - Unknown
No.10 - Unknown
No.11 - Unknown
No.12 - Catherine Pickett and husband Dave, Unknown press interview.
No.13 - Mary Jane Kelly
No.19 - Unknown couple,
No.20 - Liz Prater - inquest testimony

Can anyone else add or correct any details?

This may help?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18566