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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ben View Post
    Hi Norma,



    More problematic is the total absence of any reference to a PC suspect sighting/description in Swanson's report on the witnesses with regard to the Mitre Square murder. Since this was an internal police document, the only valid explanation for such an absence is that there was never any suspect description to have originated from a PC at or near Mitre Square.

    Best regards,
    Ben

    Hi Ben,
    Since the Mitre Square murder took place in the City of London and the Berner Street murder,ten minutes away [by foot] was in Whitechapel, mustn"t there have been TWO sets of police reports for Swanson to collate? I wonder if Macnaghten,reading through these as Assistant commissioner several months later, simply got mixed up with "PC Smith"s" sighting in Berner Street opposite the club, of the man he saw with Liz Stride-who he later identified?
    He said the man was 5ft 7 ins tall, wearing a dark overcoat and dark trousers and a hard felt deerstalker hat.The man had a newspaper parcel in his hand,was clean shaven, appeared respectable and PC Smith guessed his age around 28?

    This might explain the muddle.I know others have made a similar suggestion and since Macnaghten was not at the inquest or even in his job in 1888,maybe he simply misinterpreted Swanson"s report on this?
    N

    Comment


    • #32
      Hi Norma,

      I wonder if Macnaghten,reading through these as Assistant commissioner several months later, simply got mixed up with "PC Smith"s" sighting in Berner Street opposite the club
      Yes, this would seem the most plausible explanation - that Macnaghten accidentally amalgamated the PC Smith and Lawende sightings. As for Swanson's witness report, his inclusion of both the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions tells us that he had collated both City and Met eyewitness evidence.

      Best regards,
      Ben

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Ben View Post
        Hi Norma,



        Yes, this would seem the most plausible explanation - that Macnaghten accidentally amalgamated the PC Smith and Lawende sightings. As for Swanson's witness report, his inclusion of both the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions tells us that he had collated both City and Met eyewitness evidence.

        Best regards,
        Ben
        Unfortunately however,this doesnt tell us whether Macnaghten himself set any store by either sighting........he just remarks that one person----not two, "may have seen the ripper".Pity he was vague on this .Possibly when he added "[beat]" to " PC" he was trying to be a bit specific?Difficult to know.
        N

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Ben View Post
          As for Swanson's witness report, his inclusion of both the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions tells us that he had collated both City and Met eyewitness evidence.
          No, not a chance.

          Comment


          • #35
            How many times must I point this out?

            Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
            Much more important to my mind is that the murders began in 1888,the year when at some point Chapman worked in George Yard
            Natalie, we've gone over this umpteen times and still you pass this off as fact - but it's nothing of the sort. On the contrary, the combined testimony of those who actually had most dealings with Klosowski (i.e. his landlady and his in-laws) doesn't place him anywhere near George Yard until 1889/90. Against that, all you have is the somewhat colourful testimony of Wolf Levisohn who, as a travelling salesman, only got to see Klosowski periodically.

            Sorry for that tangent into Klosowski-land, but if people insist on drip-feeding what they'd like to be facts into other discussions, I think it only fair that the balance should be redressed in favour of the actual evidence.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #36
              White"s man----a dead ringer for Thomas Cutbush?

              Something that has always intrigued me about this alleged report by Sergeant White is the description he gives of the young man he says he saw because the chap he describes is a dead ringer for the description we have from the Sun Reporter of 1894 when he visited Broadmoor and saw him there as well as his description in the Cutbush Asylum Transcriptions:

              Cutbush asylum transcription: 23 April 1891

              Age 26

              Height ----5 feet 9 and a half inches


              ---weight-- 9 stone 6 pounds

              ----hair------ black

              --whiskers - black


              --eyes- dark blue VERY SHARP


              -- build -slight


              ---features --slim


              The Sun reporter gives the same description adding his face was very narrow and that he had a slight stoop/"as if his chest troubled him" Feb 1894.


              Compare this then with Sergeant White"s "alleged" report:


              -He was about 5 feet 10 inches in height

              -his face was long and thin

              -his hair was jet black

              -the most striking thing about him was the extraordinary brilliance of his eyes

              The man was slightly bent at the shoulders,though obviously quite young-about 33 at the most.......

              Best
              Norma
              Last edited by Natalie Severn; 09-13-2009, 12:56 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                No, not a chance.
                Don"y quite understand your emphatic rejection of Ben"s point here Scott?

                How about this for a "confusion" or muddle of "identifications:


                October 2nd 1888

                "CITY" police announce that the man wanted for the

                MITRE SQUARE MURDER


                is described as follows:

                ----Age---- 28
                ---build ---slight

                ----height ---5 feet 8 ins

                ----complexion----dark

                ----no whiskers

                black diagonal coat

                hard felt hat

                collar and tie


                carried a newspaper parcel



                respectable appearance


                This is a actually a very close match to the description supplied by PC SMITH on the same night who saw a "respectable looking " man with a black diagonal coat ,dark deerstalker hat and NEWSPAPER PARCEL in IN BERNER STREET talking with the earlier murder victim that night, Elizabeth Stride at 12.35 a full hour before the MItre Square killing.

                Lawende"s man had a rough sailor appearance,was wearing a jacket and a red neckerchief and had a FAIR COMPLEXION and a moustache.
                Best Norma

                Comment


                • #38
                  How dare you!

                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  Natalie, we've gone over this umpteen times and still you pass this off as fact - but it's nothing of the sort. On the contrary, the combined testimony of those who actually had most dealings with Klosowski (i.e. his landlady and his in-laws) doesn't place him anywhere near George Yard until 1889/90. Against that, all you have is the somewhat colourful testimony of Wolf Levisohn who, as a travelling salesman, only got to see Klosowski periodically.

                  Sorry for that tangent into Klosowski-land, but if people insist on drip-feeding what they'd like to be facts into other discussions, I think it only fair that the balance should be redressed in favour of the actual evidence.
                  PLEASE Sam GET THE DETAIL RIGHT----and GET THE BOOK WITH TRANSCRIPTIONS FROM THE TRIAL.The Trial of George Chapman by HL ADAMS 1929

                  POLICE COURT PROCEEDINGS:
                  Wed 7th January

                  Wolff Levisohn 135 Rosslyn Road -he was traveller in hairdresser materials page 201,The Trial of George Chapman by HL Adams:
                  "HE FIRST MET THE ACCUSED IN A SHOP UNDER WHITE HART PUBLIC HOUSE 89 HIgh Street Whitechapel

                  IN 1888

                  [ie the same White Hart pub at corner of GEORGE YARD where Martha Tabram was murdered in 1888]


                  CHAPMAN TRIAL TRANSCRIPTION of 1903
                  Evidence for the prosecution PAGE 62 and 63

                  Wolf Levisohn examined----I live at 135 Rosslyn Road.......I have known the accused since 1888------we met from time to time up to 1890
                  Last edited by Natalie Severn; 09-13-2009, 01:37 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Moreover Sam,please be SPECIFIC with the detail of your contradictions.
                    eg WHO said WHAT and WHEN and WHERE--- EXACTLY--- is this recorded? The specific detail of your objections please so I can answer each precisely.Thankyou.
                    Last edited by Natalie Severn; 09-13-2009, 01:40 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      No, not a chance.
                      We know for certain he did, Scott, since his report included descriptions from both City and Met witnesses.

                      Hi Norma,

                      The White description was almost certainly fictitious. Even setting aside the glow-worm eyes and the long tapering fingers, it's clear from Swanson's report that there were no potential police ripper-spotters from the double event other than PC Smith. Besides which, the People's Journal account was written after White's death, and it's clear from his original commentary that there was never any suspect sighting. Even if we try to surmount the problem by arguing that the account pertained to the McKenzie murder, the theatrical nature of the description compells us to treat it with extreme caution.

                      As for the 2nd October 1888 press account, I'd agree with the "confusion" scenario. The description is very clearly Smith's, and was erroneously attributed to the Mitre Square murder.

                      All the best,
                      Ben

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                        Moreover Sam,please be SPECIFIC with the detail of your contradictions.
                        You can work it out from the COMBINED witness testimony, Nats, i.e. don't just rely on Levisohn. I can imagine why it's tempting to do the latter, as Levisohn is the ONLY witness who supports the "Klosowski was in Whitechapel at the time of Tabram's murder" argument. Sadly (for those who want to believe that), the combined testimonies - PLURAL - of Klosowski's nearest and dearest (viz., his landlady his in-laws and his day-to-day colleagues) do not support Levisohn, the salesman-who-occasionally-saw-Klosowski, at all.
                        The specific detail of your objections please so I can answer each precisely.
                        No more about this on a Stephen White thread, for pity's sake.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          You can work it out from the COMBINED witness testimony, Nats, i.e. don't just rely on Levisohn. I can imagine why it's tempting to do the latter, as Levisohn is the ONLY witness who supports the "Klosowski was in Whitechapel at the time of Tabram's murder" argument. Sadly (for those who want to believe that), the combined testimonies - PLURAL - of Klosowski's nearest and dearest (viz., his landlady his in-laws and his day-to-day colleagues) do not support Levisohn, the salesman-who-occasionally-saw-Klosowski, at all.

                          No more about this on a Stephen White thread, for pity's sake.
                          Which landlady?The only one for 1888 quoted is Mrs Radin who stated at the trial that Chapman only stayed with her for 5 months some 15 years before.She didnt say"he stayed with me in 1888".

                          Relatives:
                          Mrs Stanislaus Rauch,sister of Chapman"s wife,didnt even arrive in the UK until August 1889 -when she said she first met Chapman who was in a public house on the Whitechapel Road so how on earth could she have known what Chapman was doing in 1888? This the sister of Lucy Baderski,got several dates WRONG in fact.
                          1]She stated the marriage of her sister to Chapman was in August 1889 when it was October 1889.
                          2]She stated Chapman RETURNED from America in May 1891 when he RETURNED the following year,1892,having only just LEFT England in the spring or early Summer of 1891.

                          Likewise,Stanislaus Baderski[brother]---stated 16 March 1903,-"I have known the accused 13 years"-he did not say 15 years.ie from either 1890 or the latter part of 1889,so he neither would have known what Chapman was doing in 1888.
                          So clearly and evidently, these combined statements do not contradict the statement of Levisohn.
                          Moreover Abberline also stated to the reporter of the Pall Mall Gazette 24 March 1903,"When Klosowski[Chapman]came to Whitechapel , he occupied a lodging in George Yard,Whitechapel Road ,where the FIRST MURDER was committed.
                          Last edited by Natalie Severn; 09-13-2009, 06:44 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Natalie - I'm not prepared to discuss the matter further on this thread.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Excellent analysis folks, well done!

                              But, isn't it intriguing how the assertion a beat P.C. saw "the man with the Glow-worm eyes" in Mitre Square and recorded one of the few reliable descriptions, seems to crop up in several places and yet, not specifically amongst Swanston's reports?

                              I have always suspected if the Ripper murders are ever solved it will be because of something seen - (or not seen!)- on the night of the Double event.
                              The Ripper was forced to change his normal modus.....
                              And because his "sexual mania", was unsated after the Stride killing.
                              needing to strike again....and thus risk capture a second time in one night.



                              Also, official reports - even press accounts - assure us, that by the time of the Double event, the back lanes off Commercial Road, were literally crawling with plain-clothes coppers. (See the Reynolds News account by that American reporter).

                              Yet, and yet....Working gals still had no qualms guiding thier customers to places like Mitre Square.A mixture of desperation and better knowledge of beat policemenb's habits.(Hiding in urinals drinking, et cetera).

                              Yes, there is still more to be uncovered about the night of the Double Event.

                              JOHN RUFFELS.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Nonsense

                                I thought I put the 'Stephen White saw a suspect' nonsense to bed years ago. Evidently not.
                                SPE

                                Treat me gently I'm a newbie.

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