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  • #31
    Hi Errata,

    All good points. I think the same type of argument can be made that if K. were visited by Scotland Yard while institutionalized and if this occurred on more than one occasion (a likely occurrence) that word would have spread to the outside.

    c.d.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by jason_c View Post
      That should read two old men then.
      Ok. 2. Although to be fair, only one of them spun the whole Seaside Home cloak and dagger scenario. All Anderson said was that it was a Polish Jew who a witness recognized but would not testify against. I'm not totally sure I would trust any assertions of Anderson that it was a Polish Jew, as he had some peculiar notions about them. Of course, we don't know who the witness was, or what he identified the "Polish Jew" as doing. No one saw any of these women killed. And why not identify the witness? If its your own personal notes, why name the killer and not the witness? Anyway, that's even assuming the marginalia is genuine. Or accurate.
      The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by c.d. View Post
        Hi Errata,

        All good points. I think the same type of argument can be made that if K. were visited by Scotland Yard while institutionalized and if this occurred on more than one occasion (a likely occurrence) that word would have spread to the outside.

        c.d.
        I feel confident that if Scotland Yard had to invent a "Kosminski's Cousin Larry" to go check in on him every so often, they could have done so. The poor man had no idea who where or when he was most of the time. I don't think that people would believe him if he ever got around to noticing that he didn't have a Cousin Larry.
        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Errata View Post
          Ok. 2. Although to be fair, only one of them spun the whole Seaside Home cloak and dagger scenario. All Anderson said was that it was a Polish Jew who a witness recognized but would not testify against. I'm not totally sure I would trust any assertions of Anderson that it was a Polish Jew, as he had some peculiar notions about them. Of course, we don't know who the witness was, or what he identified the "Polish Jew" as doing. No one saw any of these women killed. And why not identify the witness? If its your own personal notes, why name the killer and not the witness? Anyway, that's even assuming the marginalia is genuine. Or accurate.
          Which notions were these?

          Swanson may have forgotten the name of his witness or simply not deemed it important enough. He was writing many years after the event and possibly without the aid of notes.

          Comment


          • #35
            Why the evidence leans in favor of the Polish Jew: Who in their right mind(s) would concoct such a story of having someone, apparently struggling ("with difficulty") emotionally and/or physically, be dragged to Hove or any place else in a day of no rapid transit? Was it because it was a genius idea to create a Seaside Home that could be confused with many other homes, and that because of the confusion, no witnesses to the event could be uncovered. That, my friends, is giving Anderson and Swanson too much credit as co-conspirators. It simply must have happened in some fashion, details notwithstanding.

            Cheers,

            Mike
            huh?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
              Why the evidence leans in favor of the Polish Jew: Who in their right mind(s) would concoct such a story of having someone, apparently struggling ("with difficulty") emotionally and/or physically, be dragged to Hove or any place else in a day of no rapid transit? Was it because it was a genius idea to create a Seaside Home that could be confused with many other homes, and that because of the confusion, no witnesses to the event could be uncovered. That, my friends, is giving Anderson and Swanson too much credit as co-conspirators. It simply must have happened in some fashion, details notwithstanding.

              Cheers,

              Mike
              Because its far easier to dismiss evidence by claiming a conspiracy.

              I have little doubt that an identification of some sort took place. The success of this "identification" is another matter. Obviously it wasnt wholely successful for one reason or another. Wether it was as a result of the reasons given by Anderson and Swanson is a perfectly legitimate debate. Claiming a conspiracy, like suicide, is the cowards way out.

              Comment


              • #37
                Suicide takes some balls, I think. The Japanese have made an art of it. Me, I don't mind a little shame in my life if it keeps me alive.

                I agree about your points regarding the success of the identification.

                Mike
                huh?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by jason_c View Post
                  Which notions were these?

                  Swanson may have forgotten the name of his witness or simply not deemed it important enough. He was writing many years after the event and possibly without the aid of notes.
                  Not Swanson, Anderson. He wrote

                  "One did not need to be a Sherlock Holmes to discover that the criminal was a sexual maniac of a virulent type ; that he was living in the immediate vicinity of the scenes of the murders ; and that, if he was not living absolutely alone, his people knew of his guilt, and refused to give
                  him up to justice. During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to-house search for him, investigating the case of every man in the
                  district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret. And the conclusion we came to was
                  that he and his people were certain low-class Polish Jews ; for jt is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give
                  up one of their number to Gentile justice. "

                  There's just a whole lot of wrong in that statement. And if that's the basis for suspicion of a Polish Jew, that's a bit of a problem. Also, I think Kosminski was Russian.
                  The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
                    Why the evidence leans in favor of the Polish Jew: Who in their right mind(s) would concoct such a story of having someone, apparently struggling ("with difficulty") emotionally and/or physically, be dragged to Hove or any place else in a day of no rapid transit? Was it because it was a genius idea to create a Seaside Home that could be confused with many other homes, and that because of the confusion, no witnesses to the event could be uncovered. That, my friends, is giving Anderson and Swanson too much credit as co-conspirators. It simply must have happened in some fashion, details notwithstanding.

                    Cheers,

                    Mike
                    See, I could buy it happening in some fashion and then getting the "walking to school in three feet of snow uphill both ways" treatment in later life. I don't think it happened as related.
                    The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Errata View Post

                      There's just a whole lot of wrong in that statement. And if that's the basis for suspicion of a Polish Jew, that's a bit of a problem. Also, I think Kosminski was Russian.
                      Kosminski was Polish. It was a part of Russia at the time, but he was definitely Polish.

                      Mike
                      huh?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by jason_c View Post
                        Because its far easier to dismiss evidence by claiming a conspiracy.

                        I have little doubt that an identification of some sort took place. The success of this "identification" is another matter. Obviously it wasnt wholely successful for one reason or another. Wether it was as a result of the reasons given by Anderson and Swanson is a perfectly legitimate debate. Claiming a conspiracy, like suicide, is the cowards way out.
                        Well, I think we should be clear here. There is no evidence to dismiss. There is an account. Someone is describing something to do with the case. They offer no evidence. As such it holds about the same weight as newspaper articles who claim to know the killer. The difference is, these are two men who should actually be able to offer some evidence, but they don't. And maybe for a very good reason, but that still doesn't make it evidence.

                        I'm not claiming a conspiracy. I'm suggesting that the fallibility of your average man could prompt these statements just as easily as the truth. My grandfather did not conspire with my parents to lie to me about how he actually lost three toes. He just felt the real story was embarrassing.

                        You want a conspiracy theory? Here you go. Right up at the top of the old search engine.
                        http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-...he-ripper.html
                        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
                          Kosminski was Polish. It was a part of Russia at the time, but he was definitely Polish.

                          Mike
                          Yeah, it's a dodgy business. This is one of those situations where borders might not matter as much as self identification. My grandmother was from that region and always identified as Russian. Her immigration papers said she was Russian. After the start of the Cold War two of her sisters started identifying themselves as Polish, but not the rest of the family. The family spoke Russian, and Polyish, which is the Polish dialect of Yiddish.

                          We don't know how Kosminski referred to himself, and we don't know how he was identified in the community or in immigration records. And we don't know how the police identified him. If they looked at his immigration records and it says he came from Russia, and he said he was Polish, how do they reconcile that? My instinct is to say that they would go with official records over self-identification, but if you have someone who is convinced the Ripper is a Polish Jew, would they twist things about a bit to make that true? Identify a Russian Jew as a Polish Jew? Identify a Polish Catholic as a Polish Jew?

                          It's just never as neat as it seems like it should be.
                          The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Errata View Post

                            You want a conspiracy theory? Here you go. Right up at the top of the old search engine.
                            I think we all know about this. The site owner stole some information from this site it seems and is including that in his hate dialogue. His hate has nothing to do with the viability of Kosminski. It seems that you want to do your best to downplay Kosminski as a suspect, but remember this is a suspect who just happened to be a Polish Jew. Feigenbaum is a suspect who just happened to be German. Tumbletly happened to be American with Irish and Canadian connections thrown in. Because Kelly and Tumblety had Irish connections and their were Irish constables at the death scene during the investigation, the Irish have come into question a lot. This is also, no doubt, due to the IRA activities in recent years and the inability for folks to get the lingering hatred out of their heads. Yet, no one gets all flustered about Irish being blamed. Don't think anyone is down on Jews. There are many little connections to things Jewish throughout the Ripper saga, and it is natural to try and connect some of the dots, like the Fenian conspirators do on the Irish side.

                            Cheers,

                            Mike
                            huh?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Errata,

                              I think Kosminski's birth records are on this side. He was from Klodowa I believe. Rob and Chris have done a lot of work in this area with Rob hoofing it to Poland maybe 2 years ago.

                              Mike
                              huh?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
                                I think we all know about this. The site owner stole some information from this site it seems and is including that in his hate dialogue. His hate has nothing to do with the viability of Kosminski. It seems that you want to do your best to downplay Kosminski as a suspect, but remember this is a suspect who just happened to be a Polish Jew.

                                Cheers,

                                Mike

                                Oh I know. I wasn't saying that anyone here was associated with that. I was saying "that right there is wacky Jack the Ripper conspiracy theorist". Makes me look eminently reasonable.

                                It's true. I don't buy Kosminski as JtR. Not because of anything Kosminski did or did not do, is or is not. It's because the police and officials involved do not behave as though they believe that he was Jack the Ripper. I find Anderson's comments on Polish Jews distasteful and not terribly confidence inspiring. The description of the Seaside Home encounter seems so Rube Goldbergian. And if people think that George Chapman was a Polish Jew when he was a Polish Catholic... I don't think these are insignificant doubts to throw on the story.
                                The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                                Comment

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