Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Running towards me without a hat, which raised my suspicions!!!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Running towards me without a hat, which raised my suspicions!!!

    Whilst looking for something else, stumbled across this. Thought it might be of interest. Assume it's the same John Neil?


    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...Neil#highlight
    Last edited by The Station Cat; 10-10-2017, 04:45 AM.

  • #2
    In all seriousness, I don't know if anyone has done any research into PC John Neil's career?

    I have done a bit of digging since coming across this Old Bailey report (I must emphasise I am an amateur). But I have found the following. He doesn't appear on the police medal rolls 1879-1911 so we must assume that he joined pre 1879. We know that in 1888 he was 36 years old. We know he was an Irishman. There is only one John Neil on the 1881 census as being a police officer and in London (coincidentally his date of birth puts him at the correct age so we must assume it's the right chap). Born in 1851 and aged 30 in 1881 and living in Kennsington which I believe is F Division. J Division didn't come into existence until 1886. So it is possible he was posted from F to J Division when it was formed, judging by his low collar number, he must have been one of the first officers posted there and have had considerable service at that point? I'm basing this theory on other officers posted to J Division with less service who were given higher collar numbers. He doesn't appear on the 1891 census as a police officer in London so I assume he'd retired by then? If he is the same bobby from the Old Bailey case he's a reserve officer by 1889, again I assume older officers would have filled that post? So he's winding down his service by 1889. Bobbies usually did 25 years service, so that gives us a start date of after 1865, but if he was born in 1851, he'd have had to have been at least 20 so 1871 seems more likely? But this would been that he served after 1891 so unsure why he doesn't appear on the census for that year? There is a John Neil who rejoins J Division in 1902 for the Coronation with a new warrant number of 2053, lots of retired bobbies re joined for the 1902 and 1911 Coronations. Also of interest from the Old Bailey case is his statement "On 10th September, at 7 a. m., I was returning off duty" The incident having taken place on the Old Bethnal Green Road (Bethanl Green station was on Bethnal Green Road), so he was either returning home off duty or making his way into work. Was he the night shift going home or the day shift coming into work. Either way he doesn't appear to have been living in the station (not sure where the station house was or even if they had one, so assume he was married) and thus must have lived up that (Northern) part of Bethnal Green.

    Comment


    • #3
      Just did a wiki search (should have done this first really), anyway it confirms the following.....

      Neil joined the Met in 1875 warrant number 59168. It also confirms he was married. Interestingly wiki has only documents the 1891 census, where as I was unable to find him on that? Only on the 1881 one. It also states that he spent his entire service in J Division. Which can't be correct if he was in Kensington in 1881? We must also consider that J Division didn't come into existence until 1886. It does confirm that he is the reserve officer from the Old Bailey case of 1889 and that he retired in 1897 after receiving an injury on duty.

      Comment


      • #4
        http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/John_Neil


        http://www.casebook.org/police_offic...john_neil.html


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...Police_Service

        The Metropolitan Police 1829–1900

        Metropolitan Police patrols took to the streets on 29 September 1829, despite resistance from certain elements of the community who saw them to be a threat to civil liberties.[11] The initial force consisted of two Commissioners, eight Superintendents, 20 Inspectors, 88 Sergeants and 895 Constables.[12] Patrolling the streets within a seven-mile (11 km) radius of Charing Cross, in order to prevent crime and pursue offenders.[13] Between 1829 and 1830, 17 local divisions each with its own police station were established, each lettered A to V, allocating each London borough with a designated letter.[14] These divisions were: A (Westminster); B (Chelsea); C (Mayfair and Soho); D (Marylebone); E (Holborn); F (Kensington); G (Kings Cross); H (Stepney); K (West Ham); L (Lambeth); M (Southwark); N (Islington); P (Peckham); R (Greenwich); S (Hampstead); T (Hammersmith) and V (Wandsworth). In 1865 three more divisions were created, W (Clapham); X (Willesden) and Y (Tottenham); J Division (Bethnal Green) was added in 1886.



        Which means that he couldn't have spent his entire career in J Division, but he might have spent his entire career in Bethnal Green? If so then whose the John Neil in Kensington in 1881 and why doesn't he appear on any of the census's for Bethnal Green (1881 and 1891).
        Last edited by The Station Cat; 10-10-2017, 06:13 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Station

          Neil was at 51 Blythe St Bethnal Green in 1891.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Robert View Post
            Hi Station

            Neil was at 51 Blythe St Bethnal Green in 1891.

            Thanks Robert, Blythe Street, is just off the Old Bethnal Green Road. So my theory that he lived in the northern part of the area was correct. Would be interesting to know whether given the time of day, whether he was coming off nights or going to start a day shift?

            Comment


            • #7
              According to................ The Complete Jack The Ripper A-Z - The Ultimate Guide to The Ripper Mystery
              By Paul Begg, Martin Fido, Keith Skinner

              Born 1850 in County Cork Died 1903
              Joined Met in 1875 warrant number 59168. Posted to J Division, where he remained apart from a brief excursus to L Division in July and August 1895, until he resigned in 1897, following injury recieved on duty.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Station

                Well, as for the Nichols murder, he went home early morning :

                The Coroner: Whitechapel-road is busy in the early morning, I believe. Could anybody have escaped that way?
                Witness: Oh yes, sir. I saw a number of women in the main road going home. At that time any one could have got away.

                There's a minor mystery about Neil : he joined the Met in 1875 yet on his marriage in 1876 he gave his occupation as 'packer.' He may well have been a packer before joining the police - there's a likely-looking John Neil, packer in 1871. But how he is given as a packer on his marriage is a mystery.

                Comment


                • #9
                  1881 census Constable John Neil - 119 Wornington Road Kensington living with his wife Mary, daughters Henrietta and Julia. This would make him of F Division and would suggest that as he joined in 1875 he did at least 6 years with F Division (but perhaps as long as 11 years), before being posted to J Division when it formed in 1886.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Robert View Post
                    Hi Station

                    Well, as for the Nichols murder, he went home early morning :

                    The Coroner: Whitechapel-road is busy in the early morning, I believe. Could anybody have escaped that way?
                    Witness: Oh yes, sir. I saw a number of women in the main road going home. At that time any one could have got away.

                    There's a minor mystery about Neil : he joined the Met in 1875 yet on his marriage in 1876 he gave his occupation as 'packer.' He may well have been a packer before joining the police - there's a likely-looking John Neil, packer in 1871. But how he is given as a packer on his marriage is a mystery.



                    Perhaps he was excepted into the police in late 1875 but didn't start his training until early 1876, after he got married? Certainly a mystery along with the fact that he clearly served several years in F Division before moving to J and yet Ripper lore records that he spent his entire service with J.


                    With regards to timings on the 31st, yes I think it's a safe bet to say he was working the night shift on that occasion. I believe they worked 8 hour shifts in those days, so three rota's would have been required to cover the 24 hours. But exactly what those hours were I don't know.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Few more details about his service, I've been able to uncover.........

                      He joined 26th July 1875 and was posted to X Division.

                      27.07.1895 146J posted to L Division as 181L.

                      10.08.1895 181L posted back to J Division as 198J.

                      23.04.1897 Pensioned as 97J (so it would appear that he went back to the 97J number, at some point between 1895 and 1897. Perhaps as a mark or respect to his Ripper days?).

                      I've still got a few more avenues to explore. But I think at this point I can confirm with a level of certainty that he didn't serve out his entire career in J Division as has previously been documented in Ripper lore.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        26th July 1875..................
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          PC John Neil, 539 K, was transferred from K Division to J Division, to become 97 J, on the date of creation of J Division (2 August 1886) under Police Orders dated 28 July 1886.

                          He was one of around 500 constables transferred to J Division that day (not including CID constables, sergeants and higher ranks).

                          Also transferred from K Division that same day, according to Police Orders, was one John Thaim (sic) from K 179 to J 96.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                            PC John Neil, 539 K, was transferred from K Division to J Division, to become 97 J, on the date of creation of J Division (2 August 1886) under Police Orders dated 28 July 1886.

                            He was one of around 500 constables transferred to J Division that day (not including CID constables, sergeants and higher ranks).

                            Also transferred from K Division that same day, according to Police Orders, was one John Thaim (sic) from K 179 to J 96.

                            Thanks David, that's very interesting!!

                            I'm told that his pension papers are now on Ancestry?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                              PC John Neil, 539 K, was transferred from K Division to J Division, to become 97 J, on the date of creation of J Division (2 August 1886) under Police Orders dated 28 July 1886.

                              He was one of around 500 constables transferred to J Division that day (not including CID constables, sergeants and higher ranks).

                              Also transferred from K Division that same day, according to Police Orders, was one John Thaim (sic) from K 179 to J 96.

                              This is interesting, two Old Bailey case which involved Buck's Row when it was covered by K Division (1880 & 1883), the second case involves a policeman named only as THICK

                              https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...Buck#highlight

                              https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...Buck#highlight

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X