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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    Hello Lynn, Simon, John, all,

    The question I have, that may be of some importance, is...


    What happened to Roger McKenna? Known as "Sylvester", the carroty man.

    As for Joseph Moroney, the man known as Joseph "Melville", he was arrested for murder, along with a man called McDonald,
    in Chicago, June 11th, 1889.



    best wishes

    Phil
    Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-06-2010, 08:51 AM.

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    Hello Lynn,

    That's ok...it took me 10 days and two readings! I didn't have to change the lenses on my glasses either!

    best wishes

    Phil

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    Butterworth

    Hello John. Thanks for the nice words. You are much too kind.

    Regarding your question about Kate Eddowes, I think it is very likely. Butterworth, in his book, mentions that both Kate and John were SB informants (having had a glimpse of the SB ledgers). Much food for thought.

    Phil, thanks for all the info on Millen. It is much appreciated, young man. Of course, it might take some time for an old man like me to digest.

    Cheers, lads.
    LC

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  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Hi All,

    And if anyone's up for a spot of Independence Day conspiracy-mongering-

    Millen died of a heart attack in New York, April 1889. Six months after he died Thomas Clarke Luby, co-founder of the Irish Revolutionary Brotherhood, wrote to John O'Leary, editor of The Irish People, saying that Millen's body had been secretly disinterred and reburied by the freemasons.

    Regards,

    Simon

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  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Hi All,

    As it's almost July 4th, here's a special two-for-the-price-of-one Dorset Street suspect offer–

    "Age 50 to 55, 5' 8", red face, blotchy as from excessive drinking—large nose—hair (wavy) brown, turning grey, moustache white, no whiskers. Very slight build, dressed—dark clothes, dark overcoat with astrakhan collar and cuffs—hard felt hat. Wears sword scarf pin—has Irish harp and shamrock on locket and watch chain."

    General Frank Millen.

    Regards,

    Simon

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    Originally posted by jmenges View Post
    I for one do not put too much (if any) stock in Cook's assertion that Melville may have detained, or attempted to detain, Tumblety in Le Havre, and I seriously question the claim in his book that Melville's son revealed Wm. Melville's involvement in the hunt for JtR on New Zealand radio.

    Cook's book is to be somewhat recommended for the other stuff on Melville, but I'd treat his Melville/Ripper section with great caution.

    JM
    Hello JM,

    Having had a deeper look at the book, and digested it a little more, I am in agreement with you about the Melville involvement and Tumblety. Caution should be excercised, but as said on a previous posting, I leave all that to the Tumblety experts, who are far more versed in such matters.
    Thank you for the well-tuned words of advice.

    best wishes

    Phil

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    When reading..

    Hello John,

    Thank you for your kind comments.
    A couple of things that I noticed were the use of the descriptions...

    "Astrakan-collar" for Muller, or Millen, and
    "carroty" for McKenna.

    Hmmm.. who was it that said that "All roads lead to Dorset Street"?

    Stephen Knight...of course...

    Lynn may very well be on to something. If I know Lynn, he probably is.. (not that it puts pressure on the man, understand..hahahaha)

    What all this does confirm is the importance of the CID ledgers that are currently being sought after by Trevor Marriot. If, and I say if, he gets to them, then we may well be able to peer through the mist a little more clearly.

    best wishes

    Phil
    Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 03:17 PM.

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    A brief history pt.3

    William Melville continued..

    After the failed attempt on Queen Victoria, it emerged that another plot, upon Balfour, the nephew of the Prime Minister and Secretary of State, a much hated man, had emerged involving one conspirator by the name of J.P.Walsh. Walsh had been involved in the "Invincibles" who claimed responsibility for the Pheonix Park murders of 1882.
    Walsh was, in 1888, based in Paris, where Melville had been posted.
    Through a long and well worked undercover operation, Melville, acting as a French policeman, confronted Walsh, and his co-conspirator, Roger McKenna, with the help of one Sergeant Flood.
    According to Andrew Cook, Roger McKenna was known as "Sylvester" and was described as "a carroty fellow". Walsh also said that he knew of a Mr Casey, mentioned in Pt 2, above, whom he last met in Le Havre in 1883. Both men were escorted by Flood and Melville by train to Le Havre. Monro informed the press that both were on their way home with the two alledged conspirators.
    Sir Charles Warren did not seemingly like the attention that Monro was getting over all these revelations. His Assistant Commissioner was getting lavish praise whilst his own reputation was falling fast, especially in the light of the November riots of 1887 in Trafalgar Square. Thereafter known as "Bloody Sunday" after the Pall Mall Gazette called it such.

    Home Secretary Matthews was not happy with Warren, who claimed to be answerable to no-one, with "certain powers by statute in the excercise of which he was responsible to no higher official" (13), and he hated Monro's direct communication with Home Secretary Matthews, by-passing himself. He had Monro transferred to help with Section D, blocked Monro's suggestion of MacNaghten as Assistant Commissioner to help "Dolly Williamson" who went on sick leave after the Dynamite plot, and it all led to Monro resigning.

    Robert Anderson was appointed, and visited his friend Monro in his office before the official announcement was made of his appointment. The appointment was to be kept quiet and according to Anderson, when visiting his friend, Monro, Warren then came along and accused Anderson of spying on him (Warren)...(14). Anderson didn't get along with Warren, and with Monro gone, the start of his new job in CID wasn't welcome. His first day was on the very first day of the start of the Jack the Ripper murders.

    Warren introduced many former Army men into the equation, giving them instructions to issue orders to the Metroploitan Police. This was very unwelcome. Any uniformed police Constable seen with a glass of beer in hand on duty was fined £50, and the height of recruitment to CID was raised to 5ft 9ins.This and many other things, meant that moral suffered in the London Metropolitan Police. Even the Queen feared that the Detective Department was not as efficient as it might be...all this at the time of unease and fear building up because of the murders in Whitechapel.. Warren eventually resigned on the 8th November 1888.

    Melville, still in France, still answered to Littlechild, and worked autonomously. Only anecdotal accounts link Melville with the pursuit of Jack the Ripper, and Andrew Cook in his book on Melville suggests it was he, along with Inspector Andrews, who were involved in the hunt for Francis Tumblety. Melville from Le Havre, where it is suggested that Tumblety, under the name of Townsend, escaped back to the USA from. However, there is nothing certain to corroberate this as any file or papers connected to Tumblety have disappeared. However I leave that part to the experts on Tumblety, who know far more than I do about it!

    Melville returned with his wife and children to England in December 1888.

    (to be continued at a later date)

    best wishes

    Phil



    Bibliography

    (13) George Dilnot, The Story of Scotland Yard, Geoffrey Bles, 1930.
    (14) Quoted by George Dilnot, from Sir Robert Anderson's The Lighter side of my Official Life, 1910
    Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 03:22 PM. Reason: spelling

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  • Johnr
    replied
    Oh What A Tangled Web..

    Thank you very much Lynn for explaining that up so clearly for me.
    Now I have an inkling of your thinkling!

    Phil,
    Thank you very much indeed for rendering Cooke's book down into a liquified and distilled form.
    You went to a lot of trouble and succeeded also, like Lynn, with great clarity.

    Boy oh boy, what a tangled skein the Jubilee plot seemed to be!
    No wonder Monro was so angry.

    Melville and Littlechild seem to emerge from the whole shemozzle in a sanctified state.

    I am starting to get the impression each book or treatise on the MPSB will prove as contradictory as each policeman's memoir's mention of JTR.

    However, Phil, I am wondering if Lynn's theory about Kate's murder being a Socialist assassination of a supposed informer. In which the evil killer tried to immitate the "V" knife-marks. I'm wondering if she might be onto something.
    After all, Cooke mentions Jenkinsons "girls" working amongst the lower working class London communities...might have included Kate?

    And didn't Detective Steve White discover a Fennian ammunition cache in London?


    JOHN RUFFELS.

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    A brief history (pt.2)

    William Melville cont.. from "M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition." by Andrew Cook.

    13 detectives gathered together for meeting 17th March 1883 upon instigation of Williamson's SIB (Special Irish Branch) were the following:-

    Cheif Inspector Littlechild
    Inspectors:- Hope and Ahern,
    Sergeants:- Jenkins, Melville, Regan,
    Constables:- Thorpe, McIntyre, Walsh, Foy, O'Sullivan, and two named Enright(12)

    In 1883, the family moved to Brixton. Kate gave birth to child No.3, William John, 3rd July 1883. Tragically, Margaret Gertie died of scarlet fever the very same day.

    March 1884, Melville transferred to Le Havre, under Jenkinson (Secret Service), along with 8 others from the originally 12 under Littlechild.

    January 1887, Jenkinson forced out of job, burned all his papers, leaving James Monro in charge of Irish Intelligence (London) and Secret Service. CID reorganised thus:-

    Section A (Ordinary) Serious crime.
    Section B, headed by Williamson, 25 strong group dealing with Irish affairs in London, the same as the old SIB.
    Section C, Port Police.

    All Section Heads reported directly to Charles Warren.

    SECTION D however, was different. Called Special Branch, financed separately from the Metropolitan Police, via the Home Office from the Treasury. Consisted of just 4 policemen. Littlechild (head), reporting to Monro (he reported to Home Secretary Matthews, not Sir Charles Warren), with three Inspectors:-
    Melville, Pope and Quinn.
    They would work outside London if need be, and kept an eye on Political agitators in general, potentially murderous ones in particular. But all information that came from America was reported from Robert Anderson's spy, Le Caron to Anderson, then directly on to Monro.

    Important to remember however, that although Jenkinson had retired, much to Monro's annoyance, little pockets of Jenkinson's "ghosts" kept on appearing, as informants turned up having been paid by Jenkinson or the Foreign Office. This included Milen, Casey and Hayes and Carroll-Trevis, amongst others, and a few of "Jenkinson's girls" working amongst the lower class communities of London. But Jenkinson was, infact, for Home Rule, and this was the reason he had insisted on complete control over the Irish situation in the first place.

    March 1887 Another daughter, Cecilia was born to William and Kate, in Le Havre.

    At this time. Monro was very concerned with the problem of explosives on their way from the USA to France, Le Have, via a passenger ship line for delivery to someone called Miller or Muller, in Paris.
    At the same time, Melville noticed a gentleman by the name of Muller travelling through. He was described as a thin, middle-aged American wearing an Astrakhan-collared coat having left New York on 18th April onboard a ship called the Gascogne. Melville followed Muller to Paris, and found out he signed himself in as General F.F.Millen.... the problem was that Millen was working for the British, but as Jenkinson had burned his papers, all but his successor kinew the fact. Also, that Carroll-Trevis was a Foreign Office spy having moved up within the Fenian movement. So Monro knew nothing about Muller (Millen) and Trevis.
    Following the threats made to the Queen in the Jubillee Dynamite Plot, Melville reported to Monro that Millen was travelling to the coast, Boulogne, and followed him there. He discovered that Millen's wife had travelled from Dublin to join him in Boulogne. They did not go to England though, and Melville discovered that a recently retired detective called Thomson and his wife arrived, stayed at the same hotel as Millen and the two couples made friends. Both couples then transferred to another hotel. Nobody knew who exactly had sent Thomson (undercover), though it was suspected that Robert Anderson had done so.

    The whole stuatiuon became even more serious when Melville contacted Monro, saying that he no longer had access to Millen's letters, as he had started to post them himself. Monro, through the Foreign Office, then Lord Salisbury, Prime Minister, got the approval of the Police in France to assist Melville, and intercept the letters Millen was sending. This having happened, Superintendant "Dolly" Williamson turns up in Boulgne, demanding, on Monro's orders, Millen's "absolute disclosure and abandonmentof his mission", believing that Millen planned to assassinate the Queen on behalf of the Irish faction Clan-na-Gael. Millen would neither confirm nor deny anything.
    Melville got hold of the letters long enough to read them and summarise them.The idea was to close down the Jubillee plot.
    In the meantime, Carroll-Trevis had employed the use of a person called Cassidy to ship the explosives for the plot, and he did. Unbeknowing to Monro, they arrived in the form of dynamite powder onboard the ship the City Of Chester in Liverpool on Jubillee day along with two brothers called Scott and a person called Mr. Joseph "Melville", who's real name was Moroney.

    However, Monro discovered that Moroney had been instructed to complete the task that Millen had been failing upon. On 21st June 1887, Millen waited with bags packed ready for flight, but nothing happened. For Monro had been told (by Melville) that Millen had been writing to Sullivan, the head of Clan-na-Gael in the USA, who knew what Cassidy and Carroll-Trevis was up to. To confuse thissue further (such is undercover work, one clearly sees) neither Millen nor Monro knew that Carroll.Trevis as anything but an agaent of the Fenian brotherhood. . Nor did Monro know that Millen had reported to both Sullivan and Trevis his reason for not completing the job himself, because of close police vigilance. Neither did Monro know, as yet, of Sullivan sending Moroney and others to do the job instead.

    Millen left Boulogne 6 days afterwards for Paris, where Melville was waiting for him, staying at the same hotel. They became acquainted, and the whole Millen family, including his daughters Kitty (who lived in London) and Florence, from Dublin, arrived. Melville helped the girls with French lessons.
    When Kitty and Florence arrived back in London, Melville left as well, where he followed her to South Kensington, and handed over responsibility to Detective Inspector Quinn. The two daughters met an Irish MP at the House of Commons and Kitty passed to him a cache of letters instructed by her father, recommending a certain Joseph Moroney to three Irish MP's.

    In the meantime, Littlechild's men, McIntyre, Quinn and Walsh went after the others who arribed with Moroney in Liverpool. They remained in London living a poor life, because only Moroney had any access to money. When an associate of Millen and Moroney died of Tb in Paris, Monro used the inquest to expose the Jubillee plot and its associaition with Millen in front of many journalists.

    Dynamite was discovered in Islington, dumped in a back yard, in late 1887, and Moroney's co-conspiritors were arrested. They recieved long prison sentences, and one died in prison, the other was released after petitions to the Home Secretary after 6 years.

    Millen left for the USA in October 1887, and died of natural causes in 1889. In March 1888 the rewards were handed out, and Melville had earned himself the princely sum of £25. Melville was, it seems posted to Paris at this time.

    (more to follow)

    best wishes

    Phil






    Bibliography:-

    (12) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
    Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 01:18 PM.

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    A brief history (pt. 1)

    Hello Lynn, Johnr, all,

    William Melville:-

    born 25.4.1850, Sneem, County Kerry, Ireland. Baptised, Roman Catholic, 26.4.1850.(1)(2)

    Son of James and Catherine Melville. (Family legend says he was actually born at Direenaclaurig Cross, a junction of two roads(3)
    population in 1850 was 360 people.

    His father, James, was a farmer.(4) who later became the owner of a bakery and liquor seller (a bakery within a pub or vice versa) (5)
    On early documentation the family name appears to be Melvin, not Melville.(6)
    Played the game of Hurley at a young age (7), probably leaving home at either 17 or 21 years of age (8)

    Became a baker in Kennington, Lambeth(9), before becoming enrolled into London's Metropolitan Police, 18th September 1872. Dismissed 20th November 1872 (insubordination) and recomenced 29th November 1872(10)(11)
    Transferred to L Division, (Lambeth and Walworth) 1873
    Newspaper reference as policeman was in 1876 in the Times, 25th September, 1876, page 12. Referred to as a 'detective', he alternated between plain clothes and uniform.

    Married Kate Reilly 20th February 1879, St. Georges RC Church, Southwark.

    Promoted to Detective Sergeant, CID June 1879. Stationed at P Division. (Camberwell, Walworth and Peckham.

    According to 1881 census, baby Margaret Gertie (18months) and her mother and father were living at 44 Liverpool Street (later changed to Liverpool Grove), near Walworth Police Station. In 1882, child No. 2, another daughter, called Kate, was born.

    In March 1883, when his wife was expecting his third child, he was offered a position at the new covert branch of the CID, called the Special Irish Branch (SIB) with Superintendant "Dolly" Williamson at it's head. This was established in response to a Fenian bombing campaign, that had started in 1881.

    (More to follow)

    best wishes

    Phil





    Bibliography :-

    (1) Father Walsh, priest in Sneem 1829-1866
    (2) From the diaries of FatherJohn O'Sullivan (later ArchDeacon of Kenmare) referring to Father Walsh, his life, and his erratic Parish record keeping.
    (3) Dan Browning and Ferrie Galway, "M from Sneem" 1999 edition of Sneem Parish News incorporating Sneem past and present, page 6.
    (4) Land valuation Records, 1852
    (5) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
    (6) Registration Office, Births, Marraiges and Deaths, Southern Health
    Board, Killarney, County Kerry, and correspondance between Patrick Murphy, 2004
    (7) Polce Review, 1896.
    (8) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
    (9) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
    (10) 'E' Divison Register, No. 310, Metroploitan Police.
    (11) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
    Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 11:04 AM.

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    errata

    Hello John. Thanks, as always.

    "Grist for the mill" was Butterworth's phrase--and in a slightly different context.

    As for Monro, I think he eventually figured it out, and his suspicions constituted a "hot potato," duly destroyed by his descendants. (Why it should constitute such, I'm sure I don't know.)

    There is some evidence that the upper echelons of SY were thinking along these same lines. For example, Sir Charles wrote in an October 12th missive that "the last murders [ie, Stride and Eddowes--LC] were obviously done by some one desiring to bring discredit on the Jews and Socialists or Jewish Socialists." Quite an admission.

    For some time I, like Sir Charles, have given myself to such speculation. I have wondered about the facial mutilations on Kate and have come to consider them primary in understanding her demise. It has been demonstrated that her assailant tried to remove her nose and caused collateral damage to the face (the V marks). Then, on a second or third attempt settled on the nose tip and part of an ear.

    If you notice, there is a news clipping (no pun intended) on my Kaufmann thread, where socialists, in retribution for police spying, cut off a man's nose and ears. The note left behind read, we cut off your nose for being a police sleuth and your ears for being an ass. (my paraphrase.)

    Notice, too, that Kate's assailant tried to reproduce the Chapman slaying but made a rum job of it. (See Baxter's summation of the Stride murder, especially the remarks about skillful C1 & C2 and unskillful C4.)

    Obviously, there are many pieces of the puzzle left to put in place; but, I think this is a start.

    As for SY, they did a remarkable job. In my humble opinion, they caught "Jack" and safely caged him in an asylum on September 12th, without fully grasping the situation. As for the rest, I believe they had suspicions coinciding with my own.

    But enough speculation. Let's bring on more facts!

    Thanks for listening to a feeble minded old flatulator with time on his hands.

    Cheers.
    LC

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  • Johnr
    replied
    Which Brings Me Back To The Beginning..

    Thanks Lynn,
    For clearing that up. Hmmm, not sure what to think. Interesting you suggest Isenschmidt. Was Monro trying to say by "grist for the mill" that the latter JTR victims were, obvious likely victims because of the risks they were taking?? Sounds like Anderson.

    Thanks Phil,
    For your elaboration on the Cook book. Interesting you invoke Melville's and Tumblety's names.

    And thanks JM for levening the mix from Cooks book. "Well done"( as they say in the cook books).

    Not having readCook's book, nor Butterworth's, I think I am back at the start of this thread.

    After all, a quick look in the "Ultimate Sourcebook" (that's "Sourcebook not "Saucebook"), and the "A To Z", both fail to reveal any mention of Inspector Melville.

    However, I did refer back to Christopher Andrew's Authorized History of M15:
    " The Defence Of The Realm": (Allen Lane: London: 2009).I mentioned him earlier on this thread.

    It seems, according to a National Archives file, cited in Andrew,at page 101,
    there was potential for government embarrassment( when the U.K. government interned the new Russian Provisional Government's Representative, Chicherin), because of Melville's close relationship with the Czarist Ochrana rep in London, Pyotr Rachkovsky.

    I wonder if the MPSB or Melville's office suspected the JTR murders as being a Communist plot?

    JOHN RUFFELS.

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    Hello JM,

    Thank you JM. Not having at present at my disposal (Cook's book), I will take onboard your words when I come to read and absorb it fully. The chief usage I found is more background stuff on Melville of interest. However, being in the position he was, and with the yet to be revealed Ledgers dangling innocently in the background, we may well find out a lot more of his involvement/non-involvement.

    Butterworth has been pretty clear in his research and he had restriscted access to the ledgers, without focusing on The Whitechapel Murders and it is quite revealing.

    best wishes

    Phil

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  • jmenges
    replied
    Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
    Butterworth's book is pretty revealing, and other books, such as M MI5's first Spymaster, by Andrew Cook, are also worth a read.
    I for one do not put too much (if any) stock in Cook's assertion that Melville may have detained, or attempted to detain, Tumblety in Le Havre, and I seriously question the claim in his book that Melville's son revealed Wm. Melville's involvement in the hunt for JtR on New Zealand radio.

    Cook's book is to be somewhat recommended for the other stuff on Melville, but I'd treat his Melville/Ripper section with great caution.

    JM

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