Leaving one's beat

[martin wilson]

Hi Station Cat.

I subscribed to the British Newspaper Archive.
I'm getting a bit better at digging through it, I've found that I have to be a bit creative when it comes to the search terms, as 'Jack the Ripper' gets you the stuff that is familiar, so I have to think of what terms would appear in the article text. This appeared under 'policeman disciplined dismissed' iirc.
I don't discount incompetence, but applying filters to cut down on the numbers usually results in the original article disappearing, so at the moment I've got a load of bookmarked articles.

I'll keep plodding on, atm I'm looking through a murder in Islington in 1894, probably more relevant as it involved a woman found in the street and cross division policemen attending.

All the best.

[The Station Cat]

Indeed. I found this initial report in the London Chronicle 29/9/98.

A Cowardly Policeman Dismissed.

A few days ago a complaint was made to a constable that a man had stolen a valuable silk scarf from the neck of a little girl in Bermondsey. The man on being pointed out was arrested, when a scene of great violence ensued. Meanwhile another constable had been sent for, but instead of assisting his comrade he allowed the struggle to proceed. Assistance was ultimately rendered by some passers by and the prisoner, who has been several times convicted and is a dangerous character, was taken into custody. The constable was so badly maltreated that he has been incapacitated from duty ever since. On Monday notice appeared in the police orders intimating that the constable had been called upon to resign for "Cowardice in failing to render assistance when called upon by another constable, who was in charge of a violent prisoner, by whom he was seriously assaulted" and further staring that the discharged constable was considered unfit for the police force.

So that's pretty clear cut. A very different example to the Bucks Row situation obviously. Or does it show there was little room for ambiguity and personal judgement?

All the best.

Thanks for sharing this Martin, very interesting!!! How did you happen across it?

[Callmebill]

Chalk

Interesting that policemen would carry chalk, especially in context with the Goulston Street graffiti message.
I understand constables could walk from their fixed point position - no more than twenty-five yards and remain in sight of the fixed point at all times.

[martin wilson]

Indeed. I found this initial report in the London Chronicle 29/9/98.

A Cowardly Policeman Dismissed.

A few days ago a complaint was made to a constable that a man had stolen a valuable silk scarf from the neck of a little girl in Bermondsey. The man on being pointed out was arrested, when a scene of great violence ensued. Meanwhile another constable had been sent for, but instead of assisting his comrade he allowed the struggle to proceed. Assistance was ultimately rendered by some passers by and the prisoner, who has been several times convicted and is a dangerous character, was taken into custody. The constable was so badly maltreated that he has been incapacitated from duty ever since. On Monday notice appeared in the police orders intimating that the constable had been called upon to resign for "Cowardice in failing to render assistance when called upon by another constable, who was in charge of a violent prisoner, by whom he was seriously assaulted" and further staring that the discharged constable was considered unfit for the police force.

So that's pretty clear cut. A very different example to the Bucks Row situation obviously. Or does it show there was little room for ambiguity and personal judgement?

All the best.

[Bridewell]

What police officers carry changes slightly with the march of time. There is nothing unusual about police officers having chalk in their pockets though. For many years a special greasy yellow 'chalk' was used to mark the position of vehicles at road accidents prior to moving them.

There has never been a problem with officers leaving their beats provided that it was for a good and sufficient reason. As others have posted, responding to an assistance call would have been such. In fact not leaving your beat to help a colleague in urgent need of assistance would have been seen as reprehensible, then as now.

[martin wilson]

Lol. It just reminded me of many experiences at work, summed up as if you want something doing, do it yourself.
I would expect a beat sergeant to know his men, so I just wondered what this evidence is saying, if anything at all, about the reliability of PC Neil and what it meant in the wider context of the events in Bucks Row.

Apologies for the GSG speculation. Wrong thread.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[martin wilson]

Thanks Harry.

I wonder if that was Sergeant Kirby?
PC Neil's inquest evidence mentions him.
"I had in the meantime rang the bell at Essex Wharf and asked if any disturbance had been heard. The reply was "No". Sergeant Kirby came after and he knocked"

There's something slightly puzzling about this evidence. If Neil had already asked at Essex Wharf why did Sgt Kirby knock?
Or was it simply that Kirby didn't know Neil had already asked, and thus just a simple duplication of effort?

I don't exclude the possibility that Kirby didn't believe Neil for some reason. Or just double checking. Who knows?

Anyway, my line of thinking wasn't towards erasing marks, more the opposite. Policemen with chalk in their pockets. I think you can see where I'm heading.

Cheers.

[harry]

The system was,if the patrol officer got there first he would leave the chalk mark,if the sergeant got there first he would rub it out.

[martin wilson]

Hi Herlock

That's s a very good point.

I couldn't find any other reference to it, which makes me think it was discontinued shortly afterwards for that very reason.

Thanks.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm not sure where to post this but this thread seems to be related at least.
I found a description of police beats, albeit going back a bit to 1869 in the Pall Mall Gazette.
This says a chalk system was sometimes used by a policeman who was required to make a mark at certain known points, which the inspecting sergeant would then erase and expect to see on his next round.
Does anybody know if this was still in use in 1888? I've done my due diligence, but it's the only reference I can find. Thanks.

I’ve never heard of that system Martin. It seems an open opportunity for mischief-makers to go around erasing the chalk marks and getting Constables into trouble.

[martin wilson]

I'm not sure where to post this but this thread seems to be related at least.
I found a description of police beats, albeit going back a bit to 1869 in the Pall Mall Gazette.
This says a chalk system was sometimes used by a policeman who was required to make a mark at certain known points, which the inspecting sergeant would then erase and expect to see on his next round.
Does anybody know if this was still in use in 1888? I've done my due diligence, but it's the only reference I can find. Thanks.

[David Orsam]

Interest!!! Yet there are a couple of occasions whereby members of the public had complained about Fixed Point Bobbies not assisting them or fobbing them off, perhaps...............

They had to have good reason to leave a fixed point, just like a constable needed a good reason to leave his beat. Another constable requiring urgent assistance would have been such a reason.

[The Station Cat]

This is a myth.

The rules relating to fixed points had been set down in a Police Order dated 9 August 1871 and featured in General Orders of 1873. This said, in respect of police officers at fixed points:

'In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the Police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance, as in every other case in which Police duties and powers require them to act.'

Sir Charles Warren clarified the position in a Police Order issued on 11 December 1886 which stated:

'A Constable may leave his fixed point, as at present, whenever it becomes necessary in the execution of his duty.'

Interest!!! Yet there are a couple of occasions whereby members of the public had complained about Fixed Point Bobbies not assisting them or fobbing them off, perhaps...............

[David Orsam]

I further believe that things had to be very direr for a Constable to leave "Fixed Point"

This is a myth.

The rules relating to fixed points had been set down in a Police Order dated 9 August 1871 and featured in General Orders of 1873. This said, in respect of police officers at fixed points:

'In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the Police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance, as in every other case in which Police duties and powers require them to act.'

Sir Charles Warren clarified the position in a Police Order issued on 11 December 1886 which stated:

'A Constable may leave his fixed point, as at present, whenever it becomes necessary in the execution of his duty.'