PC Amos Simpson

[mickreed]

Hi Guys,

Maybe irrelevant but this puts an interesting spin on things:

In 1871 Jane Wilkins (later to become Mrs.Amos Simpson) was working as a servant for Abraham Mocatta & family.

For those who don't know - Abraham Mocatta was the Founder of the West London Synagogue of British Jews.

Amanda

I've finally been able to check this Amanda, and sadly, I don't think it's right.

Jane Simpson née Wilkins was born (according to all later censuses) in Bourton-on-the-water in Gloucs. circa 1848.

Your Jane Wilkins was born circa 1848 in Gloucester, so highly likely. However in the 1871 census there's also a Jane Wilkins born circa 1848 and born at Bourton so slightly more likely.

The clincher, I would suggest, is that this Jane Wilkins worked as a housemaid for John and Elizabeth Bundy, 46 Crowndale Road, St Pancras. An Elizabeth Bundy signed the marriage register as a witness when Amos and Jane married and Jane was resident in St Pancras.

So, I suspect that the Mocatta source for the shawl probably isn't going to work.

[GUT]

Thanks Dusty Mick and Monty.

[mickreed]

Sorry didn't do image right

[mickreed]

Just got a Kindle of the book and it has a clearer print of the policeman.

The number is clearly visible and it is definitely "89" (sorry I don't know how to get the picture off a Kindle).

Just got the Kindle version and have taken the image off. As you say clearly Z 89 so thanks mate.

[drstrange169]

Thanks Monty,

I knew you'd know!!

[Amanda]

Implications..

No guns aimed at you from this direction, Amanda. Now I'd not heard of a tallit until yesterday so I've no idea, but from the limited reading I've done since, it seems that Ashkenazi tallits tended to be woollen, whereas Sephardic ones were more likely to be of silk.

Is this right, and if so, does it have any implications for the case? Was Mrs Mocatta more likely to have a woollen one or a silk one? Jane Wilkins could shape up as a good source of the item.

Hi Mick,
The Sephardic tallit would have been silk ONLY if the man wearing it was of German descent .
However, Mrs. Mocatta would most definitely have had a silk tallit due to her prominent status.

Thanks for the theory support, there must be more to Jane Wilkins' connection with the shawl. I can't take for granted that her employment with a Jewish family is mere coincidence.
I'm also looking into Jane's aunt and uncle who lived in the East End.

Amanda

[Monty]

Hello Mick,

I just noticed that Simpson retired in 1901, so it would fit in with "Z" division.

Hey Dusty,

I suspect the photo was taken in 1897, when Simpson returned to the Met (and posted in Z, a specialist temporary division for such events, before it was assigned as Croydon in 1921), for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee that year.

Monty

[Monty]

Just got a Kindle of the book and it has a clearer print of the policeman.

The number is clearly visible and it is definitely "89" (sorry I don't know how to get the picture off a Kindle).

The letter is less distinct, but appears to be a "Z"

"O" and "Z" were used in August 1902 by pensioners re-drafted into the force according to, http://www.metpolicehistory.co.uk/1900-1945.html

That fits in with the picture, as the man shown appears to be quite old with what seems to be a grey bread.

Although I'll defer such things to people like Monty!

Its all in the book ;-)

O Division, apart from being the fictional division is The Bill, only existed during coronation period. Made up enitrely of reliable, hand picked, ex policemen, they supplemented the police and lined the route. They had their own helmet plates, and to find one is extremely rare.

The pratice was stopped in the 1930s, when the serect service took on the role.

Monty

[drstrange169]

Hello Mick,

I just noticed that Simpson retired in 1901, so it would fit in with "Z" division.

And yes, some clearer pictures of the "shawl" would be handy.

The fact that it is one sided, like my runner, tends to lead me down the runner route, but it's hard to say for sure.

The main thing I'd like to see, and in my opinion, the book should have shown, is which flowers the authors specifically
thinks are Michelmas Daisies, as I can't see any flowers on the "shawl" that actually looks like them.

[mickreed]

Hello Caligo,

"I really think the whole 'table runner' thing needs to go away and die quietly in a dark corner..."

Since I own a table runner or "dresser scarf" to give it it's Victorian name, I'm not so willing to dismiss the possibility.

That looks a rather familiar object, Dusty. There's endless scope for alternative speculations. What a shame that there are not, so far as I know, any really good photos of the 'shawl', including both sides of it.

[mickreed]

Just got a Kindle of the book and it has a clearer print of the policeman.

The number is clearly visible and it is definitely "89" (sorry I don't know how to get the picture off a Kindle).

The letter is less distinct, but appears to be a "Z"

"O" and "Z" were used in August 1902 by pensioners re-drafted into the force according to, http://www.metpolicehistory.co.uk/1900-1945.html

That fits in with the picture, as the man shown appears to be quite old with what seems to be a grey bread.

Although I'll defer such things to people like Monty!

Good one, old mate. That is interesting.

[drstrange169]

Hello Caligo,

"I really think the whole 'table runner' thing needs to go away and die quietly in a dark corner..."

Since I own a table runner or "dresser scarf" to give it it's Victorian name, I'm not so willing to dismiss the possibility.

[drstrange169]

Just got a Kindle of the book and it has a clearer print of the policeman.

The number is clearly visible and it is definitely "89" (sorry I don't know how to get the picture off a Kindle).

The letter is less distinct, but appears to be a "Z"

"O" and "Z" were used in August 1902 by pensioners re-drafted into the force according to, http://www.metpolicehistory.co.uk/1900-1945.html

That fits in with the picture, as the man shown appears to be quite old with what seems to be a grey bread.

Although I'll defer such things to people like Monty!

[mickreed]

You don't put many posts on here, what's your theory about the heritage of the shawl - table runner - tallit - curtain - turban - sari - sarong - thingy?

Amanda

This is where RE thought the shawl came from.

http://artmuseum.by/eng/vyst/the-last-exhibitions/flowers-of-russia-exhibition-of-pavlovo-posad-shawl-manufactory”

Who knows? They certainly look quite wonderful, don't they?

[ajcol]

Thingy Theory!

To be honest, Amanda, I don't really know enough about it - and haven't been on here long enough to even catch up with all the 'evidence'/arguments (or post very much) -there's just so much going on in the boards. It's bloody fascinating stuff though (no pun intended!).
At the moment I'm leaning towards dodgy provenance, and the mtDNA seems a bit too 'iffy' to me as a layman, to place the item, whatever it is, in Mitre Sq with Kozminski and Catherine Eddowes together at those few exact moments in time!
I do remember my Grandmother having an old 'table runner' on a long sideboard/chest of drawers which had patterns at each end, though I think it was linen with crocheted end panels - would have been about same size though!
Also, interestingly to me at least, - my Grandfather told me many years ago, that he could remember his mother standing on their front step on winter evenings calling them in for bed saying "Jack The Ripper will get you if you don't come now!" (He was born in 1900)
I'll check with my son who lives in Krakow, about the location of that museum.
Alan

Oh.....and apologies to Monty for straying somewhat off-topic.