Ask Monty……

[Herlock Sholmes]

Second question Neil, in the CasebookWiki entry for Neil it says: “In 1889, John Neil was a reserve police officer, JR 11”

Why a reserve in 1889?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Neil,

I was just looking at the police officers involved with the case and saw Sergeant Wesley Edwards 7H who was approached by Thomas Sadler after he’d been assaulted. The bio on Casebook says that he was promoted to Police Sergeant 3HR (reserve)

If he was already a sergeant why did this constitute a promotion?

Cheers.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hey Herlock,

The Section Sergeant (who would be on constant patrol around his section) would commonly release the Fixed Point Officer at the allotted time.

if the Section Sergeant would know he would be unavailable to release the FP Officer then a reserve would be arranged or, in some cases, the Station Inspector would do the duty if he was available.

cheers

Hi Neil,

Its a relief to learn that my memory isn’t totally shot.

Thanks for the help.

[Monty]

PS It must be noted that some Fixed Point Duty locations had different time slots to the usual 9pm to 1am.

some covered the 3pm till 7am time slot.

cheers

[Monty]

Hi Neil,

I was questioning if my memory was even worse than I thought it was. It’s on the subject of Fixed Point officers. Did you say that their duty ended when a sergeant arrived and told them it was over and that occasionally if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to the role? Or have I got it wrong?

Cheers

Hey Herlock,

The Section Sergeant (who would be on constant patrol around his section) would commonly release the Fixed Point Officer at the allotted time.

if the Section Sergeant would know he would be unavailable to release the FP Officer then a reserve would be arranged or, in some cases, the Station Inspector would do the duty if he was available.

cheers

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're welcome. Don't often visit the boards these days but glad to see you are still busy - and also that Monty is posting occasionally.

I hope that you’re well Colin? It would be good to see you posting more often. We are certainly going over and over old ground though. Some new topics would be good but maybe there are none?

[Bridewell]

Thanks for that info Colin. The Dickens Dictionary is excellent but I hadn't looked at it for a while.

You're welcome. Don't often visit the boards these days but glad to see you are still busy - and also that Monty is posting occasionally.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Dickens Dictionary of London is a valuable source of information on Victorian life.

Thanks for that info Colin. The Dickens Dictionary is excellent but I hadn’t looked at it for a while.

[Bridewell]

The Dickens Dictionary of London is a valuable source of information on Victorian life.

[Bridewell]

Hi Neil,

I was questioning if my memory was even worse than I thought it was. It’s on the subject of Fixed Point officers. Did you say that their duty ended when a sergeant arrived and told them it was over and that occasionally if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to the role? Or have I got it wrong?

Cheers

I created a thread on the subject of the "H" Division Fixd Points. This is the opening post:-

Fixed Points on 'H' Division

03-10-2023, 12:22 PM
The fixed points were under discussion on another thread. I'll list them here as a point of reference. Source is Dickens's Dictionary of London 1888:

(I've modernised the spelling but altered nothing else)

Fixed Points (Police):

The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am.

In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance:

H or Whitechapel Division

Ben Jonson Road and White Horse St, Stepney, junction of

Brick Lane and Bethnal Green Rd, junction of

Christian St and Commercial Rd, end of

Church St, Wapping

Columbia Rd, Bethnal Green, corner of Hassard St

Commercial Rd East, corner of Bromehead St,

Commercial St, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl St

Flower and Dean St and Brick Lane, Spitalfields, end of

George Yard, High St, Whitechapel, end of

G.E. Railway, High St, Shoreditch, front of

Great Garden St and Whitechapel Rd, opposite end of

Hanbury St, corner of Deal St, Mile End New Town

Hare Alley, High St, Shoreditch, end of

Hermitage Bridge, Wapping

Leman St, Commercial St, and High St, Whitechapel, junction of

New Gravel Lane Bridge, London Docks *

Old Gravel Lane Bridge, London Docks *

Ship Alley & St George's St East, south end of,

Shoreditch Church

Spencer St and Watney St, St George's East, corn and Mile End Rd, junction ofer of

Spitalfields Church

Stepney Railway Station, Commercial Rd East

Upper East Spitalfield, principal entrance London Docks

Warner Place and Hackney Rd, corner of

Wells St, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home

Whitechapel Church

White Horse Lane and Mile End Rd, junction of

* A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am


(On J Division (Bethnal Green) there was a fixed point on Whitechapel Road, in front of the East London Railway Station.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

My ears are burning

Hi Neil,

I was questioning if my memory was even worse than I thought it was. It’s on the subject of Fixed Point officers. Did you say that their duty ended when a sergeant arrived and told them it was over and that occasionally if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to the role? Or have I got it wrong?

Cheers

[Monty]

My ears are burning

[Herlock Sholmes]

You may be right, I'm just guessing based on what I've read.

I may be right but I wouldn’t bet on it Wick. I’ve been convinced before and been proven wrong.

[Wickerman]

You may be right, I'm just guessing based on what I've read.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think we have a solution.

The posting you refer to Mike explains that a City police sergeant would meet his beat constable at a designated point on his beat to check that all was ok.
This is not a Fixed Point as understood in Met. Police terminology.
It is also very likely a Met. sergeant or Inspector would make similar arrangements with their own beat constables - merely to check on the status of their duty.
And, (recall our discussion in the Stride case), this arrangement ensures the beat constable keeps his beat to a known schedule. That, for instance, PC Smith would be aware of the time as he progresses around his beat.

I’d still like to hear from Neil though Wick. I could be completely wrong of course but I really do have the strongest feeling that Neil said that a Sergeant ended the FP PC’s duty and that occasionally another officer stepped in to perform that duty.

I can’t have imagined it…

Can I ?

Then again… I’ve been wrong before….June 14th 1983 it was…nightmares