Tamworth Herald 26th July 1890

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't think anyone has suggested that Aaron Kozminski was allowed out of the asylum for an identification parade. Swanson wrote that the attempted identification took place before he was sent to Colney Hatch. Anderson, in the serial version of his memoirs, wrote that his suspect was identified "when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum", but that phrase was omitted from the book version.

Also remember Swanson and Andersons account conflict with each other.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

Why would this be on a doctor's conscience? His job would be simply to determine whether or not the patient was insane - a purely clinical decision surely? A much greater crisis of conscience would arise if he certified a sane man on the basis of police opinion that said man was JtR.

A medical decision based on what he had been able to assess from a physical and mental examination and also what he had been told by the police and the family.

[Chris]

I can also hardly see asylum authorities allowing the police to take a patient under their care out for the purpose of an ID parade,

Nor can I. A gate arrest at the asylum when he was released on the first occasion perhaps?

I don't think anyone has suggested that Aaron Kozminski was allowed out of the asylum for an identification parade. Swanson wrote that the attempted identification took place before he was sent to Colney Hatch. Anderson, in the serial version of his memoirs, wrote that his suspect was identified "when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum", but that phrase was omitted from the book version.

[Mayerling]

The populace would assume that anybody sharing the same last name was related to the suspect and that asylum staff knew who he was, but didn't say anything.

People having the last name of "Hitler" changed their names during and after WWII. Similarly with "Oswald" after JFK's assassination.

Hi Scott,

It's a good point, and fortunately the so-called suspects all have rather unusual nams (the most "common one" I came think of is "Bury", though "Stephen" comes close). But it still does not explain why anyone in this poor area of London would be a threat if a) they are too poor to mount a threat; and b) the police are now also looking at the suspects, so that it is suicidal to bring oneself into the ken of the police. And as for the issue of the attack on asylums and their staff - really now? With bombs or battering rams?

Jeff

[Bridewell]

Plus the fact if a doctor was told all about Kosminski and his ripper connection would any doctor want to release him and maybe allow him to kill again and them have that persons murder on their conscience.

Trevor,

Why would this be on a doctor's conscience? His job would be simply to determine whether or not the patient was insane - a purely clinical decision surely? A much greater crisis of conscience would arise if he certified a sane man on the basis of police opinion that said man was JtR.

[Bridewell]

I can also hardly see asylum authorities allowing the police to take a patient under their care out for the purpose of an ID parade,

Nor can I. A gate arrest at the asylum when he was released on the first occasion perhaps?

[Bridewell]

I checked the Ancestry UK incoming lists for port of departure Halifax and date 1890. The records for this seem to start at 1891.

Hi Robert,

I'm so glad that I read to the end of the thread before logging onto Ancestry!

[Scott Nelson]

I have to ask, what is the security threat to the relatives, asylum staff, etc. from anyone by divulging the name of the suspect? ....And assaults on asylums and their staffs?

The populace would assume that anybody sharing the same last name was related to the suspect and that asylum staff knew who he was, but didn't say anything.

People having the last name of "Hitler" changed their names during and after WWII. Similarly with "Oswald" after JFK's assassination.

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff

I'm the one who mentioned Wallis. I know she was too young to be the woman - I was making a joke, because the rest of the world knew about her relationship with Edward VIII before most of the UK did. I was pointing up the near silence in the UK Press on the Halifax lady, compared with the North American Press (although the story didn't make much of a splash there either).

Hi Robert,

Actually I realized it was a joke, but my pedantic side got the better of me. Sorry about that.

I guess it could not have been Magda Lupescu either!

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

I'm the one who mentioned Wallis. I know she was too young to be the woman - I was making a joke, because the rest of the world knew about her relationship with Edward VIII before most of the UK did. I was pointing up the near silence in the UK Press on the Halifax lady, compared with the North American Press (although the story didn't make much of a splash there either).

[Mayerling]

This woman wasn't Wallis Simpson, was she?

What the letter writer or the suspect? One can never be too rich or too thin to be a ripper suspect.

Hi Mr. Lucky,

I hate to burst this bubble, but Wallis Simpson came from Baltimore, Maryland, and was born in 1894. She could not have written any letters or visited London by herself (and probably could not have been allowed to discuss murder cases - especially involving prostitutes). If you must suggest a girlfriend of a Prince turned King for the 1890s, possibly Daisy, Countess of Warwick (Bertie's "Darling Daisy") or later Alice Keppel (though she was rather reticent about the relationship.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

[QUOTE=robhouse;
1. The police could never, I repeat NEVER divulge all the information... ie. the suspect's name, etc. This would be a) pointless, b) a security threat to his relatives, asylum staff, etc, and 3) quite probably illegal.

RH[/QUOTE]

Hi RH,

I have to ask, what is the security threat to the relatives, asylum staff, etc. from anyone by divulging the name of the suspect? We have here (as far as we can surmise - short of wild speculations concerning "the highest in the land" a la Stephen Knight) that the victims are (with apologies to those victims) common prostitutes. Even Mary Kelly is a common prostitute. For members of their circles of friends or relatives (mostly on the bottom stratum of society) to go out of their way to wreak vengeance on relatives of say Kosminski, Osrog, Druitt, Cutbush, etc. is hard to believe. First the police would be supposedly keeping tabs on the suspects and note people who came around to their addresses too frequently. Secondly, while Kosminski and Osrog might reside nearby, the Druitt family are in Wimborne, and Cutbush is middle class - how would denizens of the East End approach them to do harm to them or their families. And assaults on asylums and their staffs? How about an attack reminiscent of the "Clerkenwall Outrage" of 1868? You might recall you needed a well organized group to pull off that one, with enough money to cover the expenses. This from the relatives of "Long Liz" or or Annie Chapman?

I may mention that some of the suspects would be extremely dangerous to approach with hostile intent. Imagine looking murderous with a weapon at Bury, Cream, Deeming, or Chapman. Who do you think would end up being hurt or killed.

On the other hand your third reason: "probably illegal" is more likely the reason. The Yard had enough headaches from the case to wish to bury it and go on with more current events and problems. They did not need to fight off slander suits from various families or even the named suspects regarding what were technically still wild allegations of identification. That is most likely to be the reason for police reticence.

Jeff

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mr Lucky

Well, if the story originated from Halifax, Yorks, then it's very odd that, as far as I am aware, the only report of it that we have from a British newspaper, so far, is the Edinburgh report that you found. They had the story in Canada, and they had it in America, but as far as England goes - zilch.

Hi Robert,

This is a little odd indeed, firstly, I'm not saying that it's definitely the Yorkshire Halifax that's the origin of the story, but that we can not actually make a judgement on which one, with the information available at the moment.

There are many news stories that appear to originate with the UK based agencies, yet may never appeared in print this side of the Atlantic. A favourite of mine is the description issued after the Buck's row murder of the man with the black beard who was being looked for, there is not a peep about him this side (as far as I know, there is a chance it could be Mr Morgan's 'Jim') , but it's in the American press.

However, later in connection with Henry Birch, his man (the milk drinker) apparently fitted the description issued after the Buck's row murder!

This woman wasn't Wallis Simpson, was she?

What the letter writer or the suspect? One can never be too rich or too thin to be a ripper suspect.

[Chris]

I personally just cannot see the problem here. If this story has "absolutley no foundation" and is a "ridiculous concontion".. it tells me that the police are in actual fact, still looking for JTR.

It doesn't, though. It just says that particular story - about the Ripper having been arrested - has no foundation.

[Observer]

Hello Observer,

I have a feeling, although perhaps mistaken, that Cutbush and Collicott are once again being mixed up here. But like you say, and I agree, the case for Thomas Cutbush being locked away far outweighs the case for Aaron Kosminski. But the wheels mustn't be allowed to fall off the bandwagon, must they?.. It has to keep rolling along. Myth upon myth perpetuated by? and for what reason?

One or two of us have seen the light a long time ago. We are no longer in darkness.


Phil

For what reason indeed Phil?

Myth's are usually born of ignorance. However some posters choose another route into mythology , and study the minutia to the nth degree. Of course the differing news reports, which differ again from the police and inquest reports, are rich fields for Myth, and conspiracy.

In the case of the Whitechapel murders, Mr Evans is absolutely correct in stating that police intelligence should take precedent over all other material available to us. The press reports of the inquests are also of great interest.

At the end of the day though this is just a forum where both amateur, and experienced researchers, and authors express an opinion. I don't think there are too many people who are going to take Fleetwood Macs version of the Cutbush versus Kosminski who should have been sent to Broadmoor or not myth too seriously.

Regards

Observer