The Secret Special Branch Ledgers

[Trevor Marriott]

It shows a complete lack of understanding about the Fenian movement as a whole, it's structures and it's aims. There is no reason why killing Prostitutes in a London slum could in any way lead to an Independent Ireland. You also misunderstand the Fenian mentality. It was imperative to claim responsibility for attacks- that way the public, Police and Politicians were under no illusions that this was an attack by the Fenians and that these attacks were inextricably linked with their aim of an Independent Ireland. Claiming responsibility was key. It gave them headlines and status. Skulking around a London slum knifing prostitutes in the dead of night and not claiming responsibility was hardly going to achieve their aim was it?

Part of the Fenians agenda was to disrupt the forces of law and order in London, they did that by the bombings they carried out, but the forces of law and order were also disrupted by the murders. Many police officers were employed on the murders who could have been more gainfully employed in catching the terrorists.

And if Mary Kelly was really Alice Carroll in hiding there is your motive!

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[Sunny Delight]

You've made a point that people should at least read Fenian Fire as part of the Ripper curriculum, what I don't get is how you see these cause driven terrorists incapable of committing gruesome murders in London that terrorized the general public and embarrassed the police. If we can just look at the murders individually instead of grouping the murders under the umbrella of a "series of Five', some kind of terrorism for one or more of these is certainly not an idea that isn't worth looking into.

It shows a complete lack of understanding about the Fenian movement as a whole, it's structures and it's aims. There is no reason why killing Prostitutes in a London slum could in any way lead to an Independent Ireland. You also misunderstand the Fenian mentality. It was imperative to claim responsibility for attacks- that way the public, Police and Politicians were under no illusions that this was an attack by the Fenians and that these attacks were inextricably linked with their aim of an Independent Ireland. Claiming responsibility was key. It gave them headlines and status. Skulking around a London slum knifing prostitutes in the dead of night and not claiming responsibility was hardly going to achieve their aim was it?

[Michael W Richards]

The Clan na Gael bombers which were financed by a shadowy American splinter group named the Triangle had no interest in Politics. That was the whole issue with the split between IRB, Clan na Gael and the Triangle. The 'New Departure' although not supported by the IRB was not opposed so their members were free to associate with the Irish Parliamentary Party who favoured Home Rule. Clan na Gaels leadership led by men like John Devoy were also pragmatic but the rank and file did not subscribe to this. Their aim was to terrorize the British public so they would see holding Ireland as too problematic and not worth the hassle. It was a really naive type of plan- the attacks and although in a way revolutionary in its thinking the Empire was never going to give in to such methods. The Ripper murders would have been an unwelcome distraction for them- taking the spotlight and headlines off them and onto the Whitechapel murderer.

You've made a point that people should at least read Fenian Fire as part of the Ripper curriculum, what I don't get is how you see these cause driven terrorists incapable of committing gruesome murders in London that terrorized the general public and embarrassed the police. If we can just look at the murders individually instead of grouping the murders under the umbrella of a "series of Five', some kind of terrorism for one or more of these is certainly not an idea that isn't worth looking into.

[Sunny Delight]

If you think they had any interest whatsoever in murdering five prostitutes in a slum in London then it is you that has the problem with the point of terrorism.

They might not have been involved in the actual murders but any terrorist worth his salt should have been able to exploit them (the murders) for their own benefit. Bribe a few newspaper editors to really play up the murders thus creating fear and lack of trust in the police and public officials. Send a few agents around to pubs saying "politician X can't protect you and your family from this killer. You should vote for politician Y (who has Fenian ties) to replace him."

Not saying this happened only that it certainly feasible.

c.d.

The Clan na Gael bombers which were financed by a shadowy American splinter group named the Triangle had no interest in Politics. That was the whole issue with the split between IRB, Clan na Gael and the Triangle. The 'New Departure' although not supported by the IRB was not opposed so their members were free to associate with the Irish Parliamentary Party who favoured Home Rule. Clan na Gaels leadership led by men like John Devoy were also pragmatic but the rank and file did not subscribe to this. Their aim was to terrorize the British public so they would see holding Ireland as too problematic and not worth the hassle. It was a really naive type of plan- the attacks and although in a way revolutionary in its thinking the Empire was never going to give in to such methods. The Ripper murders would have been an unwelcome distraction for them- taking the spotlight and headlines off them and onto the Whitechapel murderer.

[c.d.]

If you think they had any interest whatsoever in murdering five prostitutes in a slum in London then it is you that has the problem with the point of terrorism.

They might not have been involved in the actual murders but any terrorist worth his salt should have been able to exploit them (the murders) for their own benefit. Bribe a few newspaper editors to really play up the murders thus creating fear and lack of trust in the police and public officials. Send a few agents around to pubs saying "politician X can't protect you and your family from this killer. You should vote for politician Y (who has Fenian ties) to replace him."

Not saying this happened only that it certainly feasible.

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Can you prove that they had no involvement because all the normal CID lines of enquiry came to nothing, and by what we read there was and still is a divide between Counter terrorism and the working CID

The Special Branch or Special Irish Branch came under Monro's control when he was Assistant Commissioner (CID). There is also an entry in the register relating to him in a memorandum from the Home Secretary Henry Matthews sent in 1888 to his Private Secretary Evelyn Ruggles-Brise that read: “Stimulate the Police about the Whitechapel murders. Monro might be willing to give a hint to the CID people if necessary.” This also shows Special Branch did have some input into the murders

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Monro might be able to give a hint. YES. Of the information in his possession gleaned quite obviously from informants in the Whitechapel area. Suspicious characters who were possibly mad enough to be involved. Lets not forget those Fenian operatives would have been facing penal servitude for life if caught and convicted. It was viewed if you were mad enough to take that chance you were capable of anything.

[Sunny Delight]

I think youre missing the point on how Terrorism works. Create fear, panic, revulsion...claim responsibility, negotiate on what you want to get in order to stop terrorizing. The Train Station bombings illustrate that. There is no need to strike at the specific people/groups that are in your path...general mayhem gets responses.

That is exactly how the Fenian movement behaved and that was exactly their objective. They were more interested in hitting high profile targets even managing to bomb the Special Branch headquarters themselves. They also managed to gain entry into Westminster with explosives and detonatied them in the House of Commons chamber. They attacked Town Halls and even attacked the Carlton Club- a haunt of Conservative MP's. They of course attacked train stations and the Tower of London. If you think they had any interest whatsoever in murdering five prostitutes in a slum in London then it is you that has the problem with the point of terrorism.

[Michael W Richards]

The Fenian movement were attempting a form of terrorism- a new form as it were, where instead of targeting Political or Poilce representatives they attempting to frighten the populace into pressuring the Politicians for change instead. However it was based on achieving an independent Ireland. How the Jack the Ripper murders would in any way help that cause I do not know. It is fairly obvious that the Branch had informants amongst Irish immigrants within Whitechapel. Keeping an eye for those who may be sympathetic to the Fenian cause. I am sure they were tapped for info regarding Jack the Ripper. As I say have they overheard anything in a pub, seen any suspicious characters. They obviously told the Branch some names. Most likely useless. I would also say that despite the Irish Parliamentary Party and IRB(Fenians) being closely linked with the 1880 New Departure(google it) those involved in attacking England were often Clan na Gael Irish American operatives. Therefore any connection with the Irish Party as the files suggest is likely nonsense.

I think youre missing the point on how Terrorism works. Create fear, panic, revulsion...claim responsibility, negotiate on what you want to get in order to stop terrorizing. The Train Station bombings illustrate that. There is no need to strike at the specific people/groups that are in your path...general mayhem gets responses.

[c.d.]

I dont know where the suggestion that the newspapers were behind the murders came from, We know they profited from them but there is no way any newspapers were behind the murders, sp we best bin that idea.

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My point exactly. Just because a group profited from the murders doesn't necessarily mean they were behind them.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

All the murders went unsolved, to dismiss any positive line of enquiry would be foolhardy.

I agree completely. I simply object to a starting point of well they profited so they must have been involved. If so, provide the evidence.

c.d.

I dont know where the suggestion that the newspapers were behind the murders came from, We know they profited from them but there is no way any newspapers were behind the murders, sp we best bin that idea.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

All the murders went unsolved, to dismiss any positive line of enquiry would be foolhardy.

I agree completely. I simply object to a starting point of well they profited so they must have been involved. If so, provide the evidence.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

The police, the Fenians or the newspapers?

Sorry, I meant the newspapers. They profited from the murders so they had to have been involved. Of course it could also have been the paper companies that sold the paper to the newspapers. Or maybe a company that made printers ink. More newspapers sold meant that more ink was purchased. Then again, maybe the newsboys were behind it all. I seem to recall people selling spots for viewing the murder sites. Surely they made a profit and so must have been involved in some way.

Ok. So much for the sarcasm but I think it points out that just because a group benefited in some way from the murders it doesn't necessarily follow that they were behind the murders. Yes, they might have been but it is not an if A then B argument.

c.d.

All the murders went unsolved, to dismiss any positive line of enquiry would be foolhardy.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

The police, the Fenians or the newspapers?

Sorry, I meant the newspapers. They profited from the murders so they had to have been involved. Of course it could also have been the paper companies that sold the paper to the newspapers. Or maybe a company that made printers ink. More newspapers sold meant that more ink was purchased. Then again, maybe the newsboys were behind it all. I seem to recall people selling spots for viewing the murder sites. Surely they made a profit and so must have been involved in some way.

Ok. So much for the sarcasm but I think it points out that just because a group benefited in some way from the murders it doesn't necessarily follow that they were behind the murders. Yes, they might have been but it is not an if A then B argument.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

The Fenians were not involved whatsoever in the Ripper murders. To even suggest it shows a huge ignorance and misunderstanding of the aims and objectives of the Fenian movement.

Can you prove that they had no involvement because all the normal CID lines of enquiry came to nothing, and by what we read there was and still is a divide between Counter terrorism and the working CID

The Special Branch or Special Irish Branch came under Monro's control when he was Assistant Commissioner (CID). There is also an entry in the register relating to him in a memorandum from the Home Secretary Henry Matthews sent in 1888 to his Private Secretary Evelyn Ruggles-Brise that read: “Stimulate the Police about the Whitechapel murders. Monro might be willing to give a hint to the CID people if necessary.” This also shows Special Branch did have some input into the murders

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

The Fenians were active in trying to disrupt the forces of law and order at this time as history tells us! I would suggest these murders did just that!

This is true. But the murders help sell a lot of newspapers. Does this therefore mean that they were somehow involved?

c.d.

The police, the Fenians or the newspapers?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk